Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Okay, so you're saying you're going to come into a space that you don't usually use, and ignore the social norms of the place. Then when told you aren't following our conventions (if we think there is a chance of misunderstandings, we type out our words in full), you just announce your intention to carry on doing what you like here!

Well, doesn't your post just encapsulate this debate and why we don't want men in our hospital wards or other places we feel vulnerable.

Thanks for illustrating it all so clearly to the lurkers.

Rather good point there purg

By the way, did anyone miss the

this site is somewhat of a bubble
these changes are for good causes
Our language is evolving

For those adding to the list.

I'm Neuro diverse and all this /gen is confusing. Because that's not what/ has meant my entire life.

So now I've been told I shouldn't talk about my trauma (even though talking about it helps) and that "/gen" etc is helpful to me, even though its not. In other words "woman. Put up and shut up". Right got it.

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

I'm Neuro diverse and all this /gen is confusing. Because that's not what/ has meant my entire life.

So now I've been told I shouldn't talk about my trauma (even though talking about it helps) and that "/gen" etc is helpful to me, even though its not. In other words "woman. Put up and shut up". Right got it.

I actually have the type of "neurodiversity" I suspect this is intended for, and I certainly didn't find it helpful. Goodness knows what people with other conditions make of it, like the people with dyslexia.

If I wanted to spend an evening learning an entirely new code like "/lh" = lighthearted for internet points, I could simply spend it learning Klingon on duolingo.

Or, learning all the 2-letter words allowed in Scrabble. Actually, that is an idea.

Because it is about inclusion. And you can still use terms like "woman" and "man", "male" and "female". It isn't taking away any terms, rather it is adding new ones or alternatives. You can still use all the same terms if you are unwilling to change. Our language is evolving just like it always has. (for example, we don't use thee anymore when meaning you)

No. It is taking away meaning to terms ‘woman’ and ‘man’ so that they mean something else. Thereby attempting to change those words irrevocably. There is no ‘adding’ of terms, maybe you meant ‘adding’ meanings.

And adding of meanings changes results in me saying the word women (adult human female) and someone interpreting as ‘anyone who wants to claim this word’. This means communication has failed when sex actually matters.

Therefore, this is not ‘inclusive’ at all.

If you meaning they added ‘terms’ it would mean new words, not prising open the meanings of commonly used words for centuries to add meanings (particularly when it now includes the very opposite as well. Ie not just women, but men, in the word ‘woman’)

So no we can’t still use terms like "woman" and "man", "male" and "female". and we can’t still use all the same terms if you are unwilling to change.

And it is very dishonest to say we can.

You will find many people agree with me here, and from what I understand, this site is somewhat of a bubble

So you have come to a forum board with the preconceived notion that this is a bubble. I am sure you can see that you have your own prejudice coming through. You then remind us of what the extreme trans rights activists like to say in attempt to discredit posters and to silence people discussing the negative interactions of one groups rights claims on those create to progress females to overcome millennia of sexist discrimination due to our sexed bodies.

There is no bubble here. There are a large range of views expressed. If people remain civil (not falling into snide remarks, slurs etc - not aimed at you by the way) then interesting discussions are to be had.

Unfortunately, many people who hold the extreme trans right activist views tend to not be able to put aside their prejudices for long enough to have those interesting conversations.

and it can be difficult to see just how many people agree that these changes are for good causes.

Absolutely it is difficult. Did you see the most recent ‘Yougov’ survey results just before Christmas? Women, in particular, aren’t even telling their friends their views !

If you honestly believe that the majority believe it is ok to change the language, maybe you are in a bubble of your own and need to get out. I suspect you will find the ‘majority’ agree with things to be polite without agreeing at all. And why would they tell the truth when it is constantly framed as ‘hurting people’ and causing suicides to not do so. And if you don’t see the coercive nature in that maneuver then I am surprised.

That Yougov survey is here.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/22/cancel-culture-what-views-are-britons-afraid-expre

@PurgatoryOfPotholes DS2 once won a game of scrabble by placing the letter 'Q' in such a place that he made the word 'qi' twice! We were pretty much neck and neck until then.

I actually have the type of "neurodiversity" I suspect this is intended for, and I certainly didn't find it helpful. Goodness knows what people with other conditions make of it, like the people with dyslexia

It's a young thing I think, it's certainly not common in my crowd. Like when we thought it was cool to use text speak when brimming with arrogance and the gift of eternal knowledge.

It's cute really.

To be fair, if someone types /gen I'm going to assume they aren't being genuine, if someone types /serious I'm going to assume they definitely are not serious and if someone types /not passive aggressive that's exactly what they are being, passive aggressive.

It's like when they say him/they you know it's not a man.

@gamerchick

I actually have the type of "neurodiversity" I suspect this is intended for, and I certainly didn't find it helpful. Goodness knows what people with other conditions make of it, like the people with dyslexia

It's a young thing I think, it's certainly not common in my crowd. Like when we thought it was cool to use text speak when brimming with arrogance and the gift of eternal knowledge.

It's cute really.

It looks like something that might have evolved on forums that use BBcode to provide users with formating options. (For those unaware, that's where instead of having idiosyncratic ^ and * tags for italics and bolding like here, you enclose the text in [i][/i] and [b][/b].)

I can see how jokey fake formatting tags like [/sarcasm] would become /s, and spawn a host of further injoke tags.

But nevertheless, I don't want to join in on it. Any more than I want to pretend I'm back in 2001, using txtspk on my Nokia 3310 to make £5 phone credit last two weeks!

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur I managed to go from losing to winning a match once, after doing just that, on a double letter score.

Some might think I didn't deserve to win, and to those people, I say nur nee nah! Gracefully.

Or should that be /gracefully?

I agree with /passive aggressive because that requires you to know that you are writing in a way that can be construed as passive aggressive. To be more inclusive, wouldn’t it be better to simply rewrite your work to be clearer and not able to be mistaken.

Surely if you are writing something that the tone can be misinterpreted, perhaps you need to rework your sentences.

My eyes find it hard enough to focus and read these days. I found reading a paragraph with tone indicators harder to read. So not very inclusive really to others outside the small group who require it. Perhaps that is why it has not been adopted by captioning etc.

The result was that I found myself having to really focus on that paragraph and gave up half way through.

[quote Enough4me]@VestofAbsurdity good point and also I don't want men changing in with me when I go swimming. So I'd like the tag team to tell me what I'm supposed to do as I'm a woman who wants women's facilities.[/quote]
Noticeable that neither member of the tag team have answered it. I, and other posters no doubt, will draw our own conclusions from the lack of response.

VestofAbsurdity

What, that ‘inclusion’ only prioritises the males?

Yeah… it is quite obvious.

It looks like something that might have evolved on forums that use BBcode to provide users with formating options. (For those unaware, that's where instead of having idiosyncratic ^ and tags for italics and bolding like here, you enclose the text in [i][/i] and [b][/b].)*

I remember that. Going back a bit now.

@ErynIsTrans

I won't stop using tone indicators. I am now, however, using the lengthened version so that it is more accessible to the average mumsnet enjoyer to prevent any googling. /serious

This doesn't affect you if you don't need them. They could also be "for the lurkers" as you say. If you don't like them, ignore them and move on. I'm sure I will learn the community norms of this website in time, but that doesn't mean I will stop making my messages accessible. /serious

May I asked when you started using tone indicators? Because, you have not used them on the other threads you are posting on? /gen

it is a tone indicator, used to ensure neurodivergent people can be included in conversation as some of them can have difficulty with reading tone in text (myself included) It can be especially difficult with sarcasm and genuine tone. They don't need to be used after every sentence, just if you're not sure if your point is clear. (also I have kids of my own lmao I'm not 12)

Oh! So shut up MNers you are being rude.

Of course reading the room and figuring out that this space has its own lexicon and tends to use real words, say "I am genuinely asking because.." or the biuscuit, or the envy/not envy face etc would have been a better use of politeness. Cos whatever online space you usually inhabit is obviously not known to many here.

Had you really intended to make yourself/selves clear you might have noted that. When in Rome, etc.

but it wont affect you if i use them for anyone who may need them /gen /lh /npa /srs

Ah! Wilful obfuscation and/or the assumption that ones own 'clarity' will suffice for all.

Whatever happened to the Crystal Clear English lot? Another victim of SM speak?

Slightly askance at the rather arrogant assumption that no one else here might be neurodivergent, or have difference in experience and therefore everyone here requires 'educating' and 'updating'.

The cost of posting as you choose without regard for others is that they are more likely just to skip past your posts. But you do you.

Yes. In a space where it is not known it does stand out as arrogant, sarcastic, insincere.

And I say that as one who has used all of the [b] [/b] as I worked in the pre-print industry pre WYSIWYG

I think what these kids really need is /patronising.

Do you really? /ShockediItellsya!

Ah ha! A new game /sohappy.

Does that mean I don't need

On another thread though, the plea not to discuss the material reality that sex is immutable was followed up stating that bringing up chromosomes triggers dysphoria.

(along no tone indicators on the many posts I read)

I am wondering if I am alone in finding some manipulative nature in these posts. These are posts on a board that was hived off for the purpose of discussing 'sex and gender' after all.

@TurquoiseBaubles

I don't get the /gen thing, but I suppose that's because I presume everyone is posting genuinely unless they specify otherwise.

Every so often I realise how naïve I am!

Someone showed me a little chart which had /s for sarcasm and /j for joking

I can see the use of those but the genuine one is a weird one, and obviously it’s nothing to do with politeness unless you are on a site/forum which requests them