Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

I still don't understand why trans cannot celebrate in third spaces together
/not sure if light hearted / is seeking information/ other tone can be inserted / how annoying is this extra ///

@Enough4me

The 'tone' words make my skin crawl.

Well I use them to communicate and i completely understand if you personally don't want to use them, but many neurodivergent people need them, so I like to use them just in case. "For the lurkers" as you say. /genuine However, directly hating on them and the people that use them can come off as ableist. /serious

@Waitwhat23

But if those terms aren't used here and people don't know them, even those who would find them helpful won't know what you're talking about. It's the same with many acronyms on here - people often ask 'what does DH mean?' or 'what does TAAT mean?' and those are terms which are used commonly on the site.

You've listed these with no explanation - /gen /lh /npa /srs. I picked up /gen from context but can't even guess at the rest. If you use language which isn't in common use on a site and just expect people on that site to somehow know what those terms mean, you're not being inclusive. Exclusive if anything.

sorry! i didn't realise it wasn't clear /genuine but I can explain them since you don't know.

/lh means lighthearted
/npa means not passive aggressive
/srs means serious

Toilets and the safety of adult and juvenile vagina people in refugee camps is huge issue globally and the situation for bodies with vulvas, especially if they are menstruators, is heart breaking.

Worth looking into for those who think the risks for those with vaginas are inevitable, and why bother getting worked up, you're going to get attacked whatever.

(Incidentally vagina is from a word meaning 'sheath', saying that's one good way to describe the female half of the world's population is just yet another fuck you.
And even worse, I suspect that those who use bodies/ people with vaginas are ignorant of the meaning.
Which is- bodies/ people with specific orifice for males to insert penis into (ie to fuck)...

'These shocking quotes are from people we have been speaking to on the issue of safety around toilets in camps.

‘He set her on fire and burned her to death for using the toilet at night’

‘She was raped in the dark, on the way to the toilet, so did not even see who did it’'

views-voices.oxfam.org.uk/2017/11/unused-toilets/

Oh for the love of small furry animals.

Stop trying to virtue-signal about how considerate you are of people with disabilities by adding unknown initialisms. If you think your posts are unclear, either rephrase them, or if you wish, append disclaimers that won't require habitual mumsnetters to google the style-guide of a completely different forum.

Eryn when posting on a well estate chat board it's usual to follow community norms rather than using shorthand from another board, and then deciding to educate those who use established shorthand.

Eg here things like

GF
Headtilt

Brian from Hull
Are ones you may need to learn for posting here.

You know what chinny reckon means I assume? That's just a UK thing.

Eryn YABU = You are being unreasonable.

Just in case anyone posts YABU to you.

I won't stop using tone indicators. I am now, however, using the lengthened version so that it is more accessible to the average mumsnet enjoyer to prevent any googling. /serious

This doesn't affect you if you don't need them. They could also be "for the lurkers" as you say. If you don't like them, ignore them and move on. I'm sure I will learn the community norms of this website in time, but that doesn't mean I will stop making my messages accessible. /serious

@Enough4me

Eryn YABU = You are being unreasonable.

Just in case anyone posts YABU to you.

Thank you, but I could figure that one out for myself using context clues like how often people on here use AIBU to mean am I being unreasonable. /not passive aggressive

@ErynIsTrans

I won't stop using tone indicators. I am now, however, using the lengthened version so that it is more accessible to the average mumsnet enjoyer to prevent any googling. /serious

This doesn't affect you if you don't need them. They could also be "for the lurkers" as you say. If you don't like them, ignore them and move on. I'm sure I will learn the community norms of this website in time, but that doesn't mean I will stop making my messages accessible. /serious

You're going to use shorthand that you know and understand. Pretty much everyone reading on this thread will obviously read parse think oh that thing in and move on.

You are not going to stop using them even though plenty posters said this is not the culture on this board.

Incidentally I'm not plugged into the net 247 but I don't remember seeing this shorthand on twitter, BBC news comments, Facebook, and obviously Twitter.

Also asked DH, I don't have time to game any more so not done for 15 years or so.
He plays a host of mmporpg and he didn't know what it meant and doesn't remember seeing it in any chats, guild talk etc etc.

So the idea it's standard well known etc is...???!

There are also loads of threads on here about being neurodiverse, and also posters who state they are autistic, have Asperger's etc comment on a wide variety of threads frequently.

I've not noticed the shorthand you use.

I've never seen a poster say that everyone needs to do this.

* Why do you insist that you are doing the right thing, refuse to adhere to the long standing norms of these boards. Imply that anyone who doesn't think oh shit I'm being a fucker to neurodiverse posters is exhibiting a lack of interest or concern for other posters comfort...

You know best, you are right, everyone else (however many) are wrong and don't care about others. You alone will ignore the culture and norms of the site, which has a huge number of mainly female users.

You can't see any issues with your approach at all???!!!???

I read /not passive aggressive as entirely smirky and pointed.

Which popular chat sites use this shorthand? Interested.

I assume you're UK so it's not a clash between eg UK sarcasm max and somewhere that doesn't do sarcasm so much.

Interesting.

Anyway let's get back to the point.

1. If all single sex spaces were always single gender, and internal gender id is not relevant when it comes to things where there's separation with two options.

*What was the reason for them in the first place?

1. If they have always been single gender, and that's an obvious fact (right?) then,

* Why have the ones that mark up the vast vast majority who go in the female/women's things, only saying wtf in the last few years?

1. Given that here the GRC was introduced when trans-sexual was the usual term, and that was the group considered when GRC came about.

And that they correctly estimated about 5k grcs, which was an amazing estimate because that was the number issued.

And that was a v small group compared to population, and had been through GRC process including panel etc.

And that mostly we turned a blind eye the (rare) times a male was in toilets... Not sure about mixed sex changing etc not sure trans-sexual women used them much tbh. Loads have different approach to female spaces etc.

And that this anyone can have any gender id, it must be respected, and how they look behave etc is irrelevant, cannot be used as any indication of their gender.

And that this position demanded by certain transgender orgs etc has totally fucked over GRC transsexual people esp transwomen.

* Why is there no discussion in the main transgender orgs etc. About this impact on this group of trans people? Why instead were/are they often referred to as truscum if they say hold on this is not good..?

I don't want men changing in with me when I go swimming.
Does this actually ever happen?
I'm in the UK, we have separate men and women's changing rooms when we go swimming.
You sometimes at the bigger places get changing villages which is for everyone to get changed, but where you're still all cubicled off.
I always think that makes sense from a family point of view, makes it easier for parents to change with their child whether they're male or female.

Yes.

Has happened in gym communal changing, women's sports clubs, that is what I'm aware of anyway.

Of course most women will quickly leave, or put up with it, or change in eg bogs, few will say anything complain etc. That's what loads of women and girls do.

Oh and swim England and gym clubs org whatever called. Introduced gender go where you like.

Then it was pointed out that loads of clubs competitions meets etc are in facilities with communal changing, and that obv for swimming and also (I was v wtf) gymnastics apparently no knickers under leotard is a common rule.

And swimming pulled the info and put under review up about I dunno. 6 years ago? Last I checked still nothing new. Will check.

Dunno about gyms.

My DDs swim lessons were at a school. Male female communal changing and showers.
Male people there aged about 5 to 85.

I personally think (know) that there are plenty of blokes (and some older boys) who would be interested in entering a place where girls 5-18 and women 18+ changing involving breasts bums vulva out, even if it is uncovered as little as poss.

Do any women and plenty girls esp older not know this?

@NoNotMeNoSiree

I don't want men changing in with me when I go swimming. Does this actually ever happen? I'm in the UK, we have separate men and women's changing rooms when we go swimming. You sometimes at the bigger places get changing villages which is for everyone to get changed, but where you're still all cubicled off. I always think that makes sense from a family point of view, makes it easier for parents to change with their child whether they're male or female.

Need it specifically be when changing for swimming?

Text for those using screenreaders

Person 1: "I had to shower at the gym today. It's a terrible set up and I couldn't hide myself. A woman complained that there was a guy in the ladies locker room!! #transproblems #transtwitter"

Person 2: "That's my fear when I start looking more fem. I'm fortunate to live 5 mins from the gym though"

Person 3: "Literally showering with my cock exposed."

Swim England have gone with their initial approach, just checked.

Policy they say written with or by (not clear) stonewall.

Trans people change etc according to gender. Can have individual changing if wanted by the trans person.

Swim clubs meets etc as I mentioned, are often held in schools. Communal changing single sex (now gender).

British gymnastics same. By gender.

Again often places with communal single sex.
Girls age about 5+, gym clubs v popular.

had to shower at the gym today. It's a terrible set up and I couldn't hide myself
That does sound like a terrible set up to be fair.
Only ever been in one changing room in a clothes shop years ago that was communal, hated it and that is as a biological woman.
Just shows that whether you're trans or not trans, keep with the bloody cubicles!
Nobody wants to be all changing out in the open.
(I don't, anyway.)

NoSiree

You seem to have missed the posts just now where I pointed out loads of times that loads of clubs, meets etc are held at facilities with two communal changing areas. Eg schools.

Tbf I didn't realise this until kids had swimming lessons.

But it's vv common, loads of people go, and obv communal changing is what's there and for various reasons schools aren't all going to build cubicles.

Now you know that, what do you think?

I think it's just asking for trouble and the fact that swim England and British gymnastics policies say changing for gender is fucking outrageous.

This does concern swimming.

Text for people using screenreaders.

Upper Caption:

Chicago School District 211 Grants Transgender Students "Unrestricted Access" to Locker Rooms

Lower Caption:
After the School Board voted 5-2 to allow male students who identify as female into girls' locker rooms, two students reacted

Two passport-style photos of students. The left image shows a smiling teenager with pink hair and glasses. This is labelled with the quote
"I'm ecstatic"

and attributed to a [named] Transgender Student at the school.

The right image shows a sad-looking teenage girl with brown hair. This is labelled with

"I feel uncomfortable my privacy's being invaded. As a swimmer, I change multiple times, naked, in front of the other students in the locker room."

It is attributed to another [named] student at the school.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

had to shower at the gym today. It's a terrible set up and I couldn't hide myself That does sound like a terrible set up to be fair. Only ever been in one changing room in a clothes shop years ago that was communal, hated it and that is as a biological woman. Just shows that whether you're trans or not trans, keep with the bloody cubicles! Nobody wants to be all changing out in the open. (I don't, anyway.)

Can you explain how the addition of someone's visible cock would have made the experience more pleasant for you?

If not, I do not see what point you are making when you say you disliked using communal changing rooms in the past.

I have huge difficulty with anyone woman or man genuinely not being able to see any risks with allowing males to access spaces where girls/teens/women are changing for anything involving exposing the body parts that men are particularly fixated with. However carefully they change.

I genuinely don't understand that.

If a said oh swimming club DDS new instructor male trans ID so naturally changing with the girls isn't that wonderful!

To anyone I know. 99.999999% of them would say wtf my god that's awful what are you going to do have you spoken to the club that can't be actually allowed etc etc.

Does anyone actually think pretty much everyone would say nice one! Inclusive sports vital!

I think with not liking communal, may have a variety of reasons for the people who cite that and similar.

I'd love to know reasons why some posters comment with points like those I don't understand.

Things like-

Cubicles etc are available in their experience,

No one likes communal, should be cubicles always,

Let's ignore that masses of situations where communal and that is NOT going to change in loads situations for a host of reasons, and focus on communal not liked get rid (just as easy as that)

....