Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

Those women would also quite like TW to stop trying to force them to stop being women, to define themselves by stereotypes they find offensive and which in effect would mean that pretty much most women aren't women so that male people can be women, to use language that erases them and which enacts beliefs they don't hold and means creating illusions they find personally disadvantaging....

Saying 'no, you can't take x away from me because I need it' is nothing like what women are being subjected to by this political movement. The behaviour this political movement would never tolerate is freely lavished by them upon women. And the fact that it's more or less acceptable continues to tell you why women's equality, access and single sex spaces are not yet a thing of the past.

@Peoplearenice

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

No you're not.

Which means you now need to persuade me that including trans-women is more important than including all the women and girls who won't be able to access the toilets now.

We have women's toilets, with sanitary bins, because women can't use urinals, and need places to sort out our periods. This is not a matter of identification. It's biological reality.

So persuade me that including transwomen in women's toilets is more important than all the women who don't agree with you also having access to somewhere to change a sanitary pad.

I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity

Accessible facilities are not a 'privilege'. They are a necessity. For the accessibility of females - the first job of a female only space - it must be single sex. Otherwise some females are excluded.

Females do not use spaces based on their identity. They use spaces based on the fact of their biological sex based reality. Those spaces are often specifically designed for the biological sex based reality of the sex using it. That this concept of sex based reality is distressing for a tiny percentage of the population does not disappear it from the 99% who need it.

No, there is no point at which a male person should be awarded a 'privilege' of using a female only space. It's not a reward for males. It's not a resource for males. It's a female space, meeting the needs of female humans. It is necessary to those female humans.

If a male person requires a different, more accessible space then create new spaces. Create lots of new spaces. You cannot rip equality off female people to try and make life better for male people.

As to 'vitriol' - when you remove accessibility to all public resources, and subordinate female humans to the interests of males - are you really surprised that females should tell you how furiously angry they are? How unfair this is? How wrong this is? Tell you their issues and needs and problems with this?

Why do you expect females to just suck up your assault on their rights and equality while being nice to you about it?!

@artichokeleaves your last two posts are absolutely spot on.

HermioneKipper (OP) wrote - "he thinks that only fully transitioned TW should be considered women"

SantaClawsServiette wrote - "numbers of fully transitioned males were tiny"

AngelicInnocent wrote - "A lot of people still see a fully transitioned male as being Hayley from Corrie"

SapphosRock wrote - "if you really object to a fully transitioned trans woman"

Is there a precise, unambiguous definition in law of " fully transitioned "?

Does it require e.g. prostate removal and bone length changes? If not, why not?

Or does it rely on the misogynist propaganda that claims "woman=breasts and/or no penis"?

Are we stuck on toilets again?

Do I deserve dignity and privacy away from all males when I use the toilet in the following ways (none of these are made up, they are my reality)

• cleaning myself and changing pads after period flooding while a pram is jammed in the open door because I had no support on a necessary trip out.

• using the hand drier to dry clothing after rinsing to remove blood, milk from overfill breasts, or vomit from an infant? Sometimes that clothing needed to be removed leaving me partially without a shirt.

• maneuvering my elderly disabled mother onto the toilet with her wheel chair jammed in an open door because their was no accessible toilet (yes, it does happen!).

• having to change clothes with cubicle doors that don’t lock between leaving one job to get to another.

Female toilets are used for so much more than ‘just needing to pee’. Many people like to ignore this.

In every case it would be humiliating if a male was in the toilets. And yes, we can tell the difference between male and female.

Plus, I have had a number of friends who have miscarried in toilets. Do they deserve privacy in cleaning up?

Males need to sort out any safety issues in their own toilets. It is not appropriate for any male above 8 to be in a female single sex space. No matter how much they want to.

/gen

Does this mean anything in particular?

EXTRACT from Karen Ingala Smith, professional in the violence against women sector

Quote

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, in almost every case, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience a debilitating trauma response as a result. It’s not their fault, it’s not a choice and it’s not something they can be educated out of. It’s not hate. It’s not bigotry. It’s not transphobia. It is an impact of abuse and they need space, support and sometimes therapy – not increased confrontation with a trauma inducing trigger; not nowhere to go that offers a woman-only space.

www.kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/amp/

Is this "privilege"?

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

/gen

Does this mean anything in particular?

i did wonder but couldn't be arsed to ask

i did wonder but couldn't be arsed to ask

It means genuine…apparently

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

/gen

Does this mean anything in particular?

An indicator of the age of those posters ;-)

12….

As a trans person myself, it takes a lot of energy to pass as the gender that I want to pass as. I think if someone is willing to work that hard to pass as a woman, they wouldn't be intent on rape or sexual assault.There are always exceptions, and I believe anyone who trusts me enough to confide in me. /gen This is however, a minority of people.

As a woman I don't care. I can't tell which man entering a single sex female space is a good man or a man with bad intent. I would argue that ANY male entering such a space has bad intent, especially if he has already been told that his presence, makes women uncomfortable.

And women can always recognise a male body, no matter how much it has been "feminised". We have to, are encouraged to from a very early age, to try and keep us safe from the greater strength, speed and personal violence rates of males as a class.

And yes, what is /gen

Or is it one of those "tell me you are under the age of 40 without telling me you are under the age of 40" - or some such thing?

@Artichokeleaves

Male people permitting female people space of their own, resources of their own, was just a privilege that they're now calling time on?

Let's just take a moment to admire the male supremacism there

Female people have sex based needs of their own, issues of their own, protected characteristics of their own, and some cannot access mixed sex spaces or resources and are currently without. This is a major issue. The first job of female spaces is to be inclusive and accessible to females.

It really doesn't matter how hard a male person has worked to be part of a female community and how touching their journey is - the moment they enter that space they have forced females out of the female space for their own reasons, and now they have two spaces and facilities and resources while females are left with exclusion and nothing. In the female space. No one doing that is wanting to be 'part of' a female community, or has the faintest care or respect for the females in it.

Third spaces. They work. There are plenty of women who mention often that they would happily use mixed sex spaces. There are answers that work for everyone. Equally. Even the female subhuman ones.

Nail meet head.

Let's just take a moment to admire the male supremacism there

Indeed, Artichokeleaves, it is a true wonder to behold seeing it right there, up front wearing no disguise, and, of course, no misogyny in that at all, no, absolutely not, no way, never.

I would like our two tag team posters who are insisting that TW use the female only single sex spaces and services what you propose for those women that cannot use those those facilities if there is any chance of a male being in there, women who are already at the very outer margins of society, what happens to them? Are you saying that they don't matter at all? You are happy that their already limited access to society is further removed?

If you are then that is stone, cold misogyny and pure hatred of women.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

/gen

Does this mean anything in particular?

it is a tone indicator, used to ensure neurodivergent people can be included in conversation as some of them can have difficulty with reading tone in text (myself included) It can be especially difficult with sarcasm and genuine tone. They don't need to be used after every sentence, just if you're not sure if your point is clear. (also I have kids of my own lmao I'm not 12)

I'd like to know whether the women excluded will get a refund on their council tax liability.

Seems a bit much to have to pay to fund public toilets when the council has said "fuck your needs and go to the toilet in your own house if you need a male-free room to urinate in".

it is a tone indicator, used to ensure neurodivergent people can be included in conversation as some of them can have difficulty with reading tone in text (myself included)

Oh, I just ask if I'm not sure if it's sarcasm.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I'd like to know whether the women excluded will get a refund on their council tax liability.

Seems a bit much to have to pay to fund public toilets when the council has said "fuck your needs and go to the toilet in your own house if you need a male-free room to urinate in".

Ooh! Ooh! You've reminded me of another one for the bingo card!

'Your toilet at home is mixed sex'.

I guess some people just find it easier to make themselves clear from the start. Its also just politeness :]

Thanks for the /gen information all

Waitwhat23

Next time you see that, tell them not to be so heteronormative and that female-only households exist.

@VestofAbsurdity good point and also I don't want men changing in with me when I go swimming. So I'd like the tag team to tell me what I'm supposed to do as I'm a woman who wants women's facilities.