Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

do you think AFAB (assigned female at birth) women don't do these things to other AFAB women?

1. men commit 98% of sexual assaults

2. transwomen are men

3. including transwomen in spaces where women are vulnerable greatly increases the risk of those women being assaulted in those spaces

I know your weird religion prevents you from admitting that you understand point 2, but literally everyone know it is true (including you)

I don't have a religion. And I would be very offended that you called my religion weird if I did.

what about AMAB men committing acts of sexual assault on other AMAB men?

As a trans person myself, it takes a lot of energy to pass as the gender that I want to pass as. I think if someone is willing to work that hard to pass as a woman, they wouldn't be intent on rape or sexual assault.There are always exceptions, and I believe anyone who trusts me enough to confide in me. /gen This is however, a minority of people.

Bad things can happen, that's just true sadly.
I was legitimately just trying to avoid hurting anyone else, believe it or not
and No, no I don't want to talk about it with you ahhaha your statements are cruel and hypocritical

One good point though is that we have finall got a definition:

A man is ... "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed masculine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation"

A woman is... "a person who uses the traditionally ascribed feminine values of their region as the main basis for their personality and presentation"

So there you go. We are back to stereotypes: dress and long hair = woman.

I sort of have to admire Mothersisterlover for at least trying . Though I agree about the name especially after the Chris Chan stuff.

@Waitwhat23

We had misogyny bingo on another thread and I think it might be time for TRA bingo on this thread. I'll list the ones I think we've seen so far on this thread -

• They just want to pee
• You're just going to get raped anyway - a sign on the door won't stop it.
• An unpleasant allusion to infertile people not really being men/women
• Genital inspections
• Educate yourself (or the new entry 'food for thought')
• AFAB
• Women rape too!
• False correlation between sex and gender
• And a late entry - we should close this debate now (please note that the person who actually brought up their traumatic experience doesn't agree with this suggestion).

Have i missed anything?

'transwomen are women Transwomen have been using women's spaces for years and women never noticed The majority of women support self ID Bigot Be kind Be nice Transwomen are the most marginalised group Trans rights are human rights How are you going to stop us? We'll just do it anyway Suicide stats Women who have gone through the menopause are men

I think if someone is willing to work that hard to pass as a woman, they wouldn't be intent on rape or sexual assault

And that's based on?

Read this and tell me that women having female-only toilets is a "privilege". FFS.

extract

There was a fantastic restaurant called Smoke (lots of still mooing steaks) they had mixed toilets. Essentially enclosed cubicles but each labelled with icon of a male bodied person or a female bodied person. Each had a wee sink in the cubicle so it was only a shared corridor

With mirrors that was mixed. It didn’t stop, however groups of rowdy drunken men being leery or grabby or flashing themselves as they didn’t bother to walk into the cubicles before getting their cocks out

Y’see the problem with these mixed toilets wasn’t that trans women were using them, it was that drunk horny entitled Male hipsters were using them without consideration for other users, in particular families. They didn’t stick to the men’s cubicles either.

I digress. My then 9year old left her cubicle early while I was still sorting myself out. We entered an empty toilet and left to a stag do queuing up to take a slash. She was flashed at by a guy who couldn’t wait to get his cock out in the cubicle and

Propositioned by another. She’s 9 fucking years old and there’s a grown man trying to chat her up. I did get very angry when I came out to hear this go on but she was terrified so we had to try to leave quickly. I had five drunken men get aggressive with me for

Defending my 9 yr old from this guy’s drunken advances. I didn’t use inflammatory language or claim he was a paedo or pervert, as I needed to keep them as calm as possible to pass them by safely.

Safety was my prime concern. 5 or so drunken stags blocking my and my daughter’s exit in a tiny wee corridor in a mixed toilet. Only one voiced reason and tried to help us out but the guy who propositioned my now crying daughter pinched her arse as we left and laughed.

Staff justified their behaviour as boys will be boys and it’s just a stag do no harm done and police weren’t interested (how can we find a drunken man in a big city) -

My once confident to pee on her own 9 year old now needs taken to the toilet by a parent and she’s scared. You see the fear of gender neutral toilets isn’t fear or denial of someone who thinks they’re a woman, it’s entitled men who think they’ve a right to grope at 9 year olds.

And the organisations who justify that behaviour as men will be men/ boys will be boys; the police who say helpful stuff like just keep out of their way (i.e. don’t pee in restaurants where a group of men can block your exit) don’t help

twitter.com/nonmanfryingpan/status/1134770508384354304?t=BQ00NMvxPOCZlh28Kbow3Q&s=19

PurgatoryOfPotholes That makes me so angry. And thats why women don't want to share with men. We don't want our daughters to share with men. It's not possible to tell which men are 'safe' and which are not. Just no.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Read this and tell me that women having female-only toilets is a "privilege". FFS.

extract

There was a fantastic restaurant called Smoke (lots of still mooing steaks) they had mixed toilets. Essentially enclosed cubicles but each labelled with icon of a male bodied person or a female bodied person. Each had a wee sink in the cubicle so it was only a shared corridor

With mirrors that was mixed. It didn’t stop, however groups of rowdy drunken men being leery or grabby or flashing themselves as they didn’t bother to walk into the cubicles before getting their cocks out

Y’see the problem with these mixed toilets wasn’t that trans women were using them, it was that drunk horny entitled Male hipsters were using them without consideration for other users, in particular families. They didn’t stick to the men’s cubicles either.

I digress. My then 9year old left her cubicle early while I was still sorting myself out. We entered an empty toilet and left to a stag do queuing up to take a slash. She was flashed at by a guy who couldn’t wait to get his cock out in the cubicle and

Propositioned by another. She’s 9 fucking years old and there’s a grown man trying to chat her up. I did get very angry when I came out to hear this go on but she was terrified so we had to try to leave quickly. I had five drunken men get aggressive with me for

Defending my 9 yr old from this guy’s drunken advances. I didn’t use inflammatory language or claim he was a paedo or pervert, as I needed to keep them as calm as possible to pass them by safely.

Safety was my prime concern. 5 or so drunken stags blocking my and my daughter’s exit in a tiny wee corridor in a mixed toilet. Only one voiced reason and tried to help us out but the guy who propositioned my now crying daughter pinched her arse as we left and laughed.

Staff justified their behaviour as boys will be boys and it’s just a stag do no harm done and police weren’t interested (how can we find a drunken man in a big city) -

My once confident to pee on her own 9 year old now needs taken to the toilet by a parent and she’s scared. You see the fear of gender neutral toilets isn’t fear or denial of someone who thinks they’re a woman, it’s entitled men who think they’ve a right to grope at 9 year olds.

And the organisations who justify that behaviour as men will be men/ boys will be boys; the police who say helpful stuff like just keep out of their way (i.e. don’t pee in restaurants where a group of men can block your exit) don’t help

twitter.com/nonmanfryingpan/status/1134770508384354304?t=BQ00NMvxPOCZlh28Kbow3Q&s=19[/quote]
I think a lot of people here would disagree with you on that, in that they just think anyone not afab doesn't deserve to be able to identify as a woman :/

@Waitwhat23

We had misogyny bingo on another thread and I think it might be time for TRA bingo on this thread. I'll list the ones I think we've seen so far on this thread -

• They just want to pee
• You're just going to get raped anyway - a sign on the door won't stop it.
• An unpleasant allusion to infertile people not really being men/women
• Genital inspections
• Educate yourself (or the new entry 'food for thought')
• AFAB
• Women rape too!
• False correlation between sex and gender
• And a late entry - we should close this debate now (please note that the person who actually brought up their traumatic experience doesn't agree with this suggestion).

Have i missed anything?

can i genuinely ask whats bad about AFAB/AMAB? /genq

it literally means assigned female at birth/assigned male at birth I dont understand what is so bad about it /gen

So, do you think women and girls being able to go to the toilet without being sexually assaulted is a privilege we don't deserve?

I think a lot of people here would disagree with you on that, in that they just think anyone not afab doesn't deserve to be able to identify as a woman :/

What the actual fuck?

Can you not see that allowing some men, however they identify, into female spaces means they are no longer female spaces. According to your thinking anyone can go in. So all girls are in danger.

You just don't care

can i genuinely ask whats bad about AFAB/AMAB? /genq

it literally means assigned female at birth/assigned male at birth I dont understand what is so bad about it /gen

Nothing is assigned at birth. Sex is observed and noted.

No-one is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is decided at the point of conception, it's just recorded at birth. AFAB and AMAB are unnecessary. Just use woman/man or girl/boy or female/male.

I think a lot of people here would disagree with you on that, in that they just think anyone not afab doesn't deserve to be able to identify as a woman

People can identify however they want. Wear what they want. Present how they want. The line is drawn however when males, no matter how they identify, also want to have women's rights and safeguards, which then renders them meaningless.

I don't have a religion. And I would be very offended that you called my religion weird if I did.

there is no such thing as the right not to be offended I'm afraid. and believing that humans can change sex definitely looks like a religion from here

what about AMAB men committing acts of sexual assault on other AMAB men?

what about it? how is that relevant to keeping women safe?

I think if someone is willing to work that hard to pass as a woman, they wouldn't be intent on rape or sexual assault.

50% of the transwomen in both the UK and US prison systems are sex offenders.

so either

1. transwomen are massively more likely to be sex offenders than your average man

or

2. men who are sex offenders are identifying as transwomen

which is it?

There are always exceptions, and I believe anyone who trusts me enough to confide in me. /gen This is however, a minority of people.

that's fine, you do you. I don't trust someone just because they've confided in me

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

ErynIsTrans

Using AFAB/AMAB suggests you either don't understand what the initialism stands for, or that you don't know what assigned means. If English is your first language, it's not an impression you should be eager to foster.

Further, it suggests you are entirely unaware of the last 40 years' worth of progress in antenatal medicine (sonographs - they're a thing!), which is an unwise image to project on a parenting site.

You just don't care

Seem so. What sort of person could read that account of that child, and still come down on the side of males being able to access these spaces. So unpleasant.

Well transwomen aren't women, obviously. They may want to be women, they may think they are women, they may try to look like women, they may conform to society's stereotypes of women , but they aren't women. The first requirement to be a transwoman is to be born male. Babies born male stay male, a person who is male cannot be a woman.

It's fairly simple really.

@ErynIsTrans the sex of human beings is observed at birth and long before, in utero, due to prenatal testing and scans. The only time, historically, that it can be said to have been 'assigned' was for people with very rare DSD's and their sex is now definitively determined by karotyping.

All this 'assigned' terminology is yet another attempt to falsely conflate sex and gender. Same gender is not the same as same sex. Stonewall have taken it upon themselves to refine homosexuality - they now define it as same gender attraction rather than it's actual definition which is same sex attraction.

That difference matters.

@Peoplearenice

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

In order to 'persuade' us that TWAW you need to define women in a non circular way . So no "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman" but an actual definition.

And no, you definitely aren't going to persuade me otherwise.

@Peoplearenice

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

Yes. This is true. There are many people who do not and will not ever share the belief that male people become women and that single sex spaces don't matter. In the same way there are many people who do not and will not ever share the belief that there is a God.

This is about tolerance which requires parallel provision. You cannot ever successfully enforce people to participate in and co operate with a belief they do not hold that is this fundamental to themselves and their lives. You cannot force them to redefine themselves to suit others against their will and their own beliefs.

Women are not requiring that TW stop being TW. They merely want to be left alone and not stripped of their access, their equality, their language and identity. They're perfectly happy for TW to have whatever resources and facilities they want and need, just not for TW to remove theirs. Solutions that work for all.

@Peoplearenice

The fundamental difference in opinion is just that some people here think that trans-women (not paedos/perverts or stag do members) are women and some don't. That's the only reason I don't really see the conversation being worth pursuing because I'm probably not going to pursuade you of that :(

There's no 'probably' about it. It's just not true!

I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity, and the majority of this comment section has responded with various virtriol, called me a mysoginist, cherry picked statements in my posts and generally ignored the intended message I have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general. Charlatans exist no matter if you help these people or not. If any of you are genuinely confused about my views then I apologise that I haven't explained myself clearly and if you try to understand I'll explain further. It seems that this is unlikely based on the previous response from some but I remain hopeful smile /gen

As male people what makes transwomen any different from any other male persons, which would make it reasonable to allow them access to female safe spaces? It is certainly not crime statistics as the danger presented by male people who identify as women is the same as the danger presented by men. Moreover, why do you think female spaces are a " privilege" that women have, rather than a safeguarding necessity which allow women to participate in public life?