Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

No one assigned me or my DC anything at birth Who do I complain to?

Oh goodie, newbies

Lots of lovely information for lurkers to digest.

Starting with "wanting women and girls to have their own spaces away from men and boys is hating on women". And "Sure you are all going to get raped anyway".

I particularly like this:

"the person has gone out of their way to try to become a part of your community and the likelyhood of her putting that image out, working on it for years of her life, simply to trick you is, I assure you, not as great as you fear."

What image? How many years? Do we have to allow people into groups because they try hard? Can we stop transwomen going into, say, prisons if they haven't tried hard enough or for long enough?

I just want to mention that once a man bought a school in order to access victims to abuse.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4290737-Queen-Ethelburga-school-and-sex-abuse

Just caught up, mothersisterlover just a heads up, your username can be taken in a very unpleasant way. Just FYI, in case you want to change it. Might be an idea especially if posting about sex offences committed by male types against juvenile and adult bodies with vaginas.

Up to you obv!

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

How do we tell the difference between the nice, genuine transwomen who just want to "pee in peace" and the not nice men who are claiming to be trans in order to access women's spaces?

My own teenage sons are lovely. Kind. Polite and I'm 99.9% certain they would never harm a woman (or another man.) So based on that they should also be allowed in the ladies yes?

For the record as its probably relevant. My rapist (who groomed, abused and raped me for years) told me it was a shame he couldn't volunteer at Brownies/Guides so he could always be with me. Likewise using ladies toilets.

I'm sure the vast majority of trans woman are lovely. As are the vast majority of men. But women still need, and deserve, single sex spaces.

I am incredibly sorry that this happened to you and you are still feeling the effects, he is/was awful. I think honestly we should close debate because I don't want to bring up past trauma for anyone else and the topic is going nowhere in my opinion. I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity, and the majority of this comment section has responded with various virtriol, called me a mysoginist, cherry picked statements in my posts and generally ignored the intended message I have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general. Charlatans exist no matter if you help these people or not. If any of you are genuinely confused about my views then I apologise that I haven't explained myself clearly and if you try to understand I'll explain further. It seems that this is unlikely based on the previous response from some but I remain hopeful :) /gen

@CheeseMmmm

Just caught up, mothersisterlover just a heads up, your username can be taken in a very unpleasant way. Just FYI, in case you want to change it. Might be an idea especially if posting about sex offences committed by male types against juvenile and adult bodies with vaginas.

Up to you obv!

Oops! I wasn't aware thanks!

have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general.

Do you ever read the news?

@TInkyWlnky

have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general.

Do you ever read the news?

What news do you read?

Mothersisterlover

When you say we should close debate to avoid bringing up trauma, do you mean that you still support transwomen in women's changing areas and rape crisis centres, but you don't want to talk about it?

Secondly, having female-only facilities is not a "privilege". It is an adjustment society has made, in order to mitigate the effects of male sexual violence on women.

Because this doesn't seem a good solution to me. That means male presences will still be traumatising women, but you will be telling traumatised women they are not allowed to speak about it in case the discussion traumatises them.

How is that in women's interest?

I think honestly we should close debate because I don't want to bring up past trauma for anyone else and the topic is going nowhere in my opinion

I think that's what I said last time I got my arse handed to me on FWR.

Men are not just as harmless as lesbians. I don't know how you could possibly believe they are. Maybe you genuinely do though. That's fine. It's not supported by any statistical evidence whatsoever though so don't kid yourself that these are just two opposing opinions.

TLDR - Men are dangerous, women have the right to spaces where there are no men, it doesn't matter how those men 'identify'.

Mothersisterlover

I think honestly we should close debate because I don't want to bring up past trauma for anyone else

I come on these threads knowing it will bring up my trauma. I suspect what you mean is "I think we should close debate because there is no sensible and logical answer to this question"

I am making the case of trans-women who I believe deserve the same privilege as AFB women to use the facilities associated with their identity
"AFAB" women are using the facilities associated with their biological sex. Nothing to do with identity. Also nothing is "assigned at birth" ffs.

I have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet or a random person in general. the vast majority of men are harmless too. Doesn't mean I want them in women's spaces.

What news do you read?

Interesting first post.

Hi 😉

Want to clarify what you mean by that?

@TInkyWlnky

What news do you read?

Interesting first post.

Hi 😉

Want to clarify what you mean by that?

Maybe it's a genuine question and we should supply examples of 'news'?

I remember reading this news for example -

"A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket.

Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March.

She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall."

Although it seems odd that I read it because apparently this could never happen?

Maybe it's a genuine question and we should supply examples of 'news'?

Maybe you're right. I shouldn't be so suspicious. I'm sure it's a totally genuine question. I'll see what I can find

We had misogyny bingo on another thread and I think it might be time for TRA bingo on this thread. I'll list the ones I think we've seen so far on this thread -

• They just want to pee
• You're just going to get raped anyway - a sign on the door won't stop it.
• An unpleasant allusion to infertile people not really being men/women
• Genital inspections
• Educate yourself (or the new entry 'food for thought')
• AFAB
• Women rape too!
• False correlation between sex and gender
• And a late entry - we should close this debate now (please note that the person who actually brought up their traumatic experience doesn't agree with this suggestion).

Have i missed anything?

I have been trying to explain to them which is that they are just as harmless to you as a woman attracted to women using the toilet

fuck me, your homophobia is astonishing. I think you're trying to imply that lesbians pose a threat to other women in the way men do

is that what you're trying to imply?

How about the man in Limerick women's prison who was convicted of over 50 sex crimes and abusing his 4 year old step child. He "came out" as transgender around the time of the offences against the 4 year old and was in possession of a gender recognition certificate by the time "her" case came before the court.

That's the Irish Mirror. www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/male-born-transgender-sex-offender-20051834

How many news sources do we need to refer to?

Big long list in here.

ovarit.com/o/ThisNeverHappens/hot

Yes to Bingo.

I'd add some kind of weird definition of man/woman - 'blah blah a woman is a cloud of formless infinite variety born from the ether of society's expectation' or some such shit. Definitely not 'tits, vagina, XX chromosomes, does the majority of the washing up and knows which kid has to be at the trampoline park at 2.30pm on saturday with a frigging Smiggle waterbottle'

And Bernard has pinpointed another bingo entry from another poster's post- 'why are you not scared of lesbians in your toilets??'

Yes I think we need

• homophobic reference to lesbians and possibly

• racist reference to black women

on our Bingo card too?

Male people permitting female people space of their own, resources of their own, was just a privilege that they're now calling time on?

Let's just take a moment to admire the male supremacism there

Female people have sex based needs of their own, issues of their own, protected characteristics of their own, and some cannot access mixed sex spaces or resources and are currently without. This is a major issue. The first job of female spaces is to be inclusive and accessible to females.

It really doesn't matter how hard a male person has worked to be part of a female community and how touching their journey is - the moment they enter that space they have forced females out of the female space for their own reasons, and now they have two spaces and facilities and resources while females are left with exclusion and nothing. In the female space. No one doing that is wanting to be 'part of' a female community, or has the faintest care or respect for the females in it.

Third spaces. They work. There are plenty of women who mention often that they would happily use mixed sex spaces. There are answers that work for everyone. Equally. Even the female subhuman ones.

@TurquoiseBaubles

How about the man in Limerick women's prison who was convicted of over 50 sex crimes and abusing his 4 year old step child. He "came out" as transgender around the time of the offences against the 4 year old and was in possession of a gender recognition certificate by the time "her" case came before the court.

That's the Irish Mirror. www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/male-born-transgender-sex-offender-20051834

How many news sources do we need to refer to?

I think we just need to not say 'I read the Daiky Mail and watch GB news' to blow their teeny TA minds tbf.

I don't know how they think these conversations are going to go?

Still just marvelling over the rampant sexism that excluding female people is the just reward for a male who has tried hard enough. That they are owed that sacrifice of displacing females from anything at all.