Kellie Jay on Talk Radio with James Max

[Mollyollydolly]

Worth a watch. How much do men hate women who say 'no'. When speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1476131289870778374

So therefore, transgenderism fits perfectly with this existing belief. Said transwoman declares pink brain status, therefore sad transwoman must be an actual woman.

I'm not entirely averse to the idea that men and women are psychologically different in some respects, though there's definitely an argument to be had about whether those are innate or learned.

What's hilarious though is that none of these prominent trans women behave in a way that is characteristic of women. They behave like men: they are loud, they are aggressive, they talk over women, they think their opinion is more important than that of a woman. Look at India Willoughby - a prime example.

What's hilarious though is that none of these prominent trans women behave in a way that is characteristic of women.

Well quite. It wouldn't matter so much if these men actually acted in a way that is perceived by some as innately female. Kind, empathetic, considerate, taking second place.

Oh, if any of them were treated, in the slightest bit like women. Overlooked, ignored, relegated.

It really has been the biggest eye-opener, in terms of male privilege and quite how hopelessly blind it is.

Packing I think that’s so true, especially among a lot of older and more successful men (though plenty of others too). They think a woman could not possibly match them and their success is down to their superior male brain power and not sexism or misogyny at all.

You post reminds me of something else I’ve noticed in both real life and celebs, politicians etc, which is that successful, or (perceived/self-perceived) as highly intelligent, men will often choose a female partner who is much less intellectual, or appears to them to be, or has a less intellectual job, and who they consider less intelligent than them (though of course she may not be at all). I suspect this is because it confirms their view of “lady brains” and any woman they encounter who is overtly intelligent or can match them at what they do can be written off as unladylike, unattractive and somehow malfunctioning.

And of course there are loads of TW who seem to think the “ditsy girlie, oops I’m dim but cute and sexy” trope is being a woman.

It seems as though these individuals believe on some level that two qualities denote type: biological sex and "brain expression" with "brain expression" being the most important in terms of civic society.

I would suggest that these men know perfectly well that there are only two sexes, but that their response to a man rejecting the stereotypes of the male sex and/or embracing stereotypes of the female sex is fundamentally different to the feminist response.

Our response is to accept that this is a man who rejects stereotypes. Their response is that if he has rejected masculinity, there is only one other thing that he can be. 🐰🎩 A man has turned into a woman.

Re Debbie Hayton, I do appreciate that there are people who will say it like it is, be clear that TW are male, and stand up for women’s rights to a separate category and spaces. I do think that’s important and it takes courage too. But it’s double-edged for me because exactly as has been shown here, Debbie is treated with respect as a male in the debate, when women aren’t and it’s so frustrating.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

This.

Women shouldn't have to indulge their AGP fantasies.

@oldwomanwhoruns

No, lovelyweather, we are not a hive mind. We will get banned after 3 strikes. So we avoid deletions. Using male pronouns for a male AGP will risk us a deletion.

As Arabella said, she, I and many others personally will never use female pronouns for any male. But the moderation regime here makes us use convoluted language sometimes - or just to avoid commenting on threads where this is exceptionally difficult. The 'chilling' effect.

Yeah I know the rules, hence my use of Surnames or initials to refer to people. It's not necessary to call men "she" yet it's still really common on here.

Also I still find it hard to see someone male imitating a woman and being expected to be OK with that on a serious level. I would rather someone like DH could just be a man who likes feminine outfits/looks and there was no “she” or “trans” about it, because it still feel like it requires a level of compromising my own woman-ness to go along with that.

Well yes, quite. But that's AGP. It's a paraphilia where presenting as a woman is the turn on.

Being a man dressed in feminine outfits isn't a paraphilia.

I think men in general view women as inferior. They cannot comprehend that any man would lower himself to be such a thing unless he really believes.

@MrsMadderRose

Packing I think that’s so true, especially among a lot of older and more successful men (though plenty of others too). They think a woman could not possibly match them and their success is down to their superior male brain power and not sexism or misogyny at all.

You post reminds me of something else I’ve noticed in both real life and celebs, politicians etc, which is that successful, or (perceived/self-perceived) as highly intelligent, men will often choose a female partner who is much less intellectual, or appears to them to be, or has a less intellectual job, and who they consider less intelligent than them (though of course she may not be at all). I suspect this is because it confirms their view of “lady brains” and any woman they encounter who is overtly intelligent or can match them at what they do can be written off as unladylike, unattractive and somehow malfunctioning.

And of course there are loads of TW who seem to think the “ditsy girlie, oops I’m dim but cute and sexy” trope is being a woman.

Thinking about it a bit more, I do think you've hit on something here.

This is actually about certain men's investment in modern gender tropes about "blue brains", that they believe they are MEN because of their super masculine minds, rather than their bodies.

And there is something to unpick here, something about masculinity depending on abstract thought and behaviour performance in the modern Western world, rather than, say, fatherhood, as it is in my DH's culture, or producing useful goods as it was in generations past -- or even just having a penis.

Because it is quite clear that these men do not believe the mere instance of having a penis and being over 18 actually makes you a man. No, you have to have a blue brain too, and not just a blue brain, probably a navy one or maybe even .... midnight indigo.

It is the Gordon Gekko-isation of masculinity where your attitude of "dog eat dog" and "I'm fucking right" is what makes you really a man and all those other blokes who do stuff like build houses and design valves and formulate vaccines and look after premature babies as paediatricians are all a bit suspect if they don't perform "competition" or participate in a ridiculous charade of "Who is the cock of the walk?"

For those are signs of the dark blue brain.

Max is so performing "dark blue brain" in that interview with KJK. Notice how he tinges his questions with those sneaky, slightly sarcastic scoffs -- that's to signal he's gone a bit midnight indigo.

And this is why they cannot cope with the gender critical thought because if to be a proper man, you must have a dark blue brain, then people with penises whose brains are not sufficiently blue cannot therefore be sufficiently male. Therefore, they must be more female: ergo, they must have women's brains in a receptacle with a penis.

The problem here is that confronting these beliefs, because they've built a structure of meaning for themselves as men upon them, is very difficult. They can't let it through because the danger is it will collapse their entire psyche.

[quote LightningJenny]This is great. [/quote]
That was wonderful. I think I enjoyed Clive's takedown as much as the interview.

@elgreco

I think men in general view women as inferior. They cannot comprehend that any man would lower himself to be such a thing unless he really believes.

Slightly more nuanced than that but that was David Aaronovitch's view of the matter until he read Helen Joyce's book, iirc.

And there is something to unpick here, something about masculinity depending on abstract thought and behaviour performance in the modern Western world, rather than, say, fatherhood, as it is in my DH's culture, or producing useful goods as it was in generations past -- or even just having a penis.

That's really interesting, Packingsoap. You may well be right.

Why do men then in particular do the soft voice, the soapy sympathy for males who identify as trans where they've demonstrated precious little exists for women?

I'm reminded of David Aaronovitch perceptive lines in his review of Helen Joyce's Trans - where, let's face it, the only criticism he could muster was that her tone was 'angry'...

"Having semiconsciously harboured for many years the natal male’s fear of castration (and doesn’t this subject quickly become personal?) I realised I had been one of those closet “transphobes” repulsed by the thought of sex-change and so was newly anxious at the very least to be sympathetic to the cause."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4298023-David-Aaronovitch-Review-of-Helen-Joyces-Book?pg=1

I wonder if at a fundamental, subconscious psychological level, this 'castration anxiety' is why men like James Max and O'Brien overcompensate. Possibly it's why some of the most virulent TRAs are gay men. Yes, they may have an unacknowledged streak of misogyny a mile wide. But, the idea that you would want something so badly that you would cut your penis off, to literally un-man yourself - means absolutely that you join all the rest of the un-men in the world.

What is not so well known is that the vast, vast majority of males who transition (90-95%) keep their penis.

"Genital GCS is generally less common than chest surgery, with prevalence rates of about 25–50% for transgender men and 5–10% for transgender women (7,9,32). For transgender women, genital GCS comprises a number of procedures, including vaginoplasty (most commonly intestinal or penile inversion) with labiaplasty and/or clitoroplasty, penectomy, and orchiectomy. Transgender women report bottom surgery at rates between 5–13% (7-9,32). Even more transgender women desire bottom surgery in the future: between 45–54% (7,9). Among non-binary people assigned male at birth, 1% have had vaginoplasty or labiaplasty, and 11% desire these in the future (7)."

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

You can relax, guys.

But it's why we, as women, can't...

@Packingsoapandwater I don't know enough about the theories to comment with real knowledge but I agree - I have often thought that for some men, ANY hint of 'femininity' in a bloke is a problem. Furthering that idea to 'you can't be a man!' and not seeing them as one is intriguing. (And in both scenarios, hence 'girl' being used as an insult? But in the furthering, really meaning they are a girl?)

Really interesting analysis. It made me think of Piers Morgan criticising Daniel Craig for wearing a papoose to carry his baby. He’s starred in the most masculine franchise and yet it seemed to be invalidated by this according to Morgan. Although Morgan does speak up on women’s safety and sports, I don’t know what he thinks of the concept of transgender altogether.

Cross post, Hadrosaurus! Our minds are working in sync!

I think one of the reasons Kellie-Jay makes men like James so angry is that she looks like a stereotypical beautiful feminine woman. Then she opens her mouth and says 'no', kind of tied in with the above discussion, the cognitive dissonance of the pretty woman who says 'No that's rubbish you're wrong' makes their heads explode.

For me, one of the most interesting parts about all this is the massive pushback that James Max is getting. From every quarter.

He's woefully behind the curve. And it shows.

His arguments and attitude have dinosaur stamped all over them. (Ironically).

This is what happens when no debate is lifted. You have to actually account for the unaccountable. And boy, does it show. The floundering is comical.

He actually said you can be born in the wrong body, and also you can't be born in the wrong body. Depending on who he was talking about. 🤣

And he wonders why people think he's a hopeless sexist.

Max was terrible. Huffing and puffing, droning on and on and then chucking a question out from his notes.
KJKM ran rings round him. He'd have been completely flattened if she'd been able to speak at any length.

@Mollyollydolly

I think one of the reasons Kellie-Jay makes men like James so angry is that she looks like a stereotypical beautiful feminine woman. Then she opens her mouth and says 'no', kind of tied in with the above discussion, the cognitive dissonance of the pretty woman who says 'No that's rubbish you're wrong' makes their heads explode.

Agreed! She's a wolf in a very glamorous sheep's clothing.

JKR also looks rather fantastic. It drives them nuts doesn't it.

For me, one of the most interesting parts about all this is the massive pushback that James Max is getting. From every quarter.

It's almost as though, having heard the words "men can't be women" and "no men in women's spaces" spoken out loud on the radio and repeated on the internet people (mainly women, I think) have jumped on a massive wave of courage to say they agree. And the more women see other women saying what they think the bigger the wave gets.
It warms my heart.

This is really interesting thinking about why some men/anyone thinks a man can literally be a woman or vice versa. It makes a lot of sense the idea that any departure from being a manly man makes you not a man. However I often think there’s another thing at play though perhaps it affects women more, or maybe both factors can work at the same time.

GC people and those who study it often point out that humans are quite good at telling what sex people are, and especially at spotting when someone is male, even when trying to pass as female. I think that’s probably a biological feature that helps us adjust our behaviour for our own safety, probably very ingrained. So I think most people do recognise others by their sex, despite what they may proclaim about gender. If they are invested in being woke, this upsets them and makes them feel bad as they feel they should 100% see and accept a TW as a woman, etc. So they overcompensate with the “TWAW” and condemning of others who won’t say that, in an attempt to deny and conceal that.

My ex is very much like this. He’s desperate to be woke and is a classic beardy arty wokebro. He has a TM colleague and it’s blindingly obvious that at a very deep level he sees this person as female - the way he patronises them, is slightly flirtatious, etc. He would NEVER treat a male the same way. But he bleats on and on about how this person is a man and how right they are about trans rights etc - including lapping up the lies about murder rates and all the rest of it. Because he has to overcompensate.

Likewise I think this is what can happen with the poor younger lesbians who end up having sex with male “lesbians”. The pressure to be woke in some circles is massive. They see a male, they don’t fancy that male, but they know that’s evil and wrong and a failing in them according to gender ideology, so they must overcompensate.

James Max "reflects" in a monologue...

mobile.twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1476483652322213893

Unfortunately he doesn't reflect, he in fact invokes gender ideology myth number 72
"Gender critical arguments are EXACTLY THE SAME as those arguing for Section 28 and the homophobic panic around gay people in the past"

and has nothing else to say on the matter.

If all you have is a bad analogy that doesn't reflect what women are actually saying right here and right now, you've lost mate.

And I don't know if it's my imagination but all of the top replies in his Twitter link above are backing KJKM.

So for James Max, can a man really really be a woman? Probably not, in as much as he immediately identifies who is male and who is females and treats them accordingly with respect, and not.

But he also knows that thinking TWAW is the right thing to think and anyone who doesn’t think it is it’s bad, wrong and bigoted. So he can only make sense of that by bringing a patriarchal “ladybrain” view of women to bear on the issue. Therefore, circularly, actual women, having ladybrains, aren’t even really qualified to comment.