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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
BackwardsTurret · 24/12/2021 21:56

Either women are being twattish pointing it out, and transwomen wouldn’t claim “you can’t tell” and would need to acknowledge that everyone can, or women can tell but don’t say anything, and transwomen wrongly take this as evidence that women can’t tell

This

VestofAbsurdity · 24/12/2021 21:59

@Kudupoo

Because by calling you she, I am imposing a gender I don't identify with onto myself. If I told you to call yourself 'he' and followed it up with 'its only polite' you'd be pretty pissed off.

I don't believe in gender identity. I don't have one. I'm referred to as 'she' and always have been because I am female sex. If I refer to you as 'she' in recognition of a feminine gender identity then I can't use it for myself. To do so would be imposing a gender on me I don't identify with or believe in. I am not cisgender so referring to me as if I am (under the new meaning) is unacceptable to me - not only does it force a gender on me but also signs me up as a believer in an ideology that I reject. And currently I can't use another word - so it's either sign up to gender identity or be stripped of your own words for yourself.

I also work with vulnerable children. When adolescents have identity pronouns it puts me in an awful position. By calling a female 'he' for example, I'm denying my own beliefs, denying their sex and affirming the message that their body is wrong and that they will never be happy unless they modify it.

It will be a cold day in hell before I present that message to children. Gender identity is an ideology and in our society we currently don't allow cultural/religious beliefs to play out on children's bodies. Think castrati, foot binding, breast ironing, FGM. It's beholden on professionals to report risk of/cases of FGM not matter the sincerely held and often well intentioned belief behind the practice. Non-medically indicated bilateral mastectomies, hysterectomies, oopherectomies, puberty blocking, cross sex hormone doping on children for reasons of a belief system is abhorrent to me, and every time I call a young female 'he' or a young male 'she' I don't know that I'm not affirming that belief and practice.

I respect people's rights to belief. I respect that you have a sincerely held belief about yourself and your body and you can refer to yourself however you please. I will accept your belief in your gender identity and denial of your sex as fundamentally important to you, but I won't be compelled to share them.

As it happens, if we could accept gender identities without denying sex I would probably use preferred pronouns. I reply 'Wa-Alaikum-Salaam' when people say 'Salaam Alaikum' even though I don't believe this genuinely infers peace on someone. I wish people Happy Easter if they celebrate it despite not believing in the resurrection of Christ. There is politeness and compromise and flexibility when we all bumble along together with plurality of thought and belief.

If gender identity was treated as the held belief that it is, and sex was treated as the material reality that it is, and women could differentiate themselves from men, have services, protections and fair opportunities that recognise their sex, then I'd be more likely to concede to a respectful observation of your faith and use preferred pronouns on the understanding that this is a concession to politeness, not a shared belief.

I will never respect the tenets of your faith as I believe its fundamentally sexist, homophobic and damaging to children, but I respect your right to hold it.

I'd like the same courtesy back and to not be admonished and shamed for being the equivalent of a gender atheist. Your post is about courtesy, maybe you should practice some too.

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.
TurquoiseBaubles · 24/12/2021 22:08

I've been waiting for the op to come back.

How surprised am I Grin

MondayYogurt · 24/12/2021 22:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

DoubleTweenQueen · 24/12/2021 22:45

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft I'm not sure why you think the answer to your question is to be found here?
Sadly too many people don't have the capacity to show common courtesy to anyone these days.

Soontobe60 · 24/12/2021 22:56

@CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

I always try and use someone preferred pronouns and name. (I do slip up occasionally with a friend who uses they/them as I've known them as she/her for 20 years). In return I expect not to be referred to as 'cis' (am not accusing OP of this)
Thats odd. I never use pronouns when talking with my friends.
OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 24/12/2021 22:57

I’m afraid I stopped respecting requests to adhere to preferred pronouns when it became clear that there was very little respect for women from most transpeople, especially transwomen. Okay, using a female public loo “just to pee” is less extreme than posing with one’s erection in a woman’s refuge or punching a women for daring to speak out in favour of women’s rights, but it’s still riding roughshod over women’s need for their own spaces.

I’ve spent most of my life trying to break down the regressive stereotypes gender adherence forces on us, I’m not going to start the equivalent of genuflecting at its altar now just because someone will be offended if I don’t agree that womanhood can be reduced to sugar and spice and all things nice.

DoubleTweenQueen · 24/12/2021 23:07

@WhiteFlagHeldAloft I would generally refer to someone who presented as female (but I could tell was possibly or clearly not), as 'she' or 'her' out of politeness.
I know someone who is clearly in this bracket, works in women's fashion, is quite shy, clearly very self-conscious, and a lovely person, and someone I would never wish to be made to feel uncomfortable or not accepted.

I treat individuals on their merits - hate bad manners, rudeness, and ignorance though.
But uphold the individual's rights to live their lives according to their own wishes and beliefs, as long as not impinging negatively on anyone else.

Attacking sex-based protections, self-id, pushing ideology on children, refuting the meaning of 'woman' - that's going way beyond acceptable, and unfortunately likely to result in a push back against identifiable groups who are being lobbied for in that way. The balance has been lost, sadly, and that's not how to win hearts and minds, and improved acceptance and courtesy from folk you meet out and about.

thetinsoldier · 24/12/2021 23:13

The vast majority of women with GC beliefs are happy to respect trans people's pronouns - but we are concerned about women's safety.

crazyjinglist · 24/12/2021 23:15

It is ok to ask people to call you a woman. I would almost certainly do so out of politeness, even though I don't believe you are one. But I don't believe people should be compelled to do so.

And tbh it's understandable that many women don't feel inclined to call natal men women, when they see increasing evidence of transwomen, or men pretending to be transwomen, intruding into women's spaces, ruining women's sport, committing secual crimes and their crimes being recorded as committed by a woman etc. There is no way of telling whether a natal male who states that they identify as a woman is in fact dysphoric or even trans, so expecting women to just automatically 'be kind' about this seems unreasonable tbh.

MissingLesbianSpaces · 24/12/2021 23:15

I for one do not believe you can change your biological sex and I refuse to pretend I believe in it. I will use your first name, but not she/her. The demands have gotten to the point of rape being listed as crimes committed by women. And next will be ANY male can be in rape support groups and changing rooms for kicks because, after all, SO many women are rapists too (with our non-existent girldicks). Most of us have been pushed too far, we are rightfully furious, and refuse to pretend frameworks are all poor innocent dainty flowers. When you rape us, when you tell us to shut up, when you demand we pretend to believe you are who you demand you to be, well that's when you are showing your male privilege. No thanks.

MissingLesbianSpaces · 24/12/2021 23:17

Typo, frameworks was supposed to read transwomen.

PickAChew · 24/12/2021 23:22

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Perhaps OP is super busy doing Christmas Eve wifey work like trimming and the sprouts, peeling veg, etc?
🤣🤣🤣
Helleofabore · 24/12/2021 23:36

As I am BBC sure others have sad, what is respectful about women having to say things that they know are not true?

It is possible to talk to you, framing the sentences to not use pronouns. But what else do you call ‘respectful’ conversation?

Luredbyapomegranate · 24/12/2021 23:45

I’d be happy to use what name and pronouns you choose. I don’t believe you are a woman, but if you you want to live/identify as one, that’s fine by me. I think that’s true of the majority of gender critical people. We are concerned about the erosion of women, and the subsequent loss of women’s rights and voices.

There will be some gender critical people who would not refer to a biological male by female pronouns, not out of discourtesy but because they believe the term is inaccurate and its use for biological males is harmful to women. I think none or very few of those people would want to cause you distress, they are simply focused on a bigger picture. I’d hope all of them would use your chosen name and avoid using male pronouns when referring to you - it’s usually possible to avoid pronouns.

Datun · 24/12/2021 23:48

Place marking to see if the OP shows up again.

HoliHormonalTigerlilly · 24/12/2021 23:53

Hi OP
I'm a gender critical
feminist.
I wouldn't be rude to you.
I'd happily call you "she/her"
I'm sorry people have been disrespectful towards you.

Would you be happy if someone differentiated between you as a trans woman & me as a biological woman?

Would you be offended if I asked you not to call me cis?

TinselAngel · 25/12/2021 00:00

@Datun

Place marking to see if the OP shows up again.
I think you can eat your Christmas dinner in peace, Datun.
CiaoForDiNiaoSaur · 25/12/2021 00:05

Soontobe60

Thats odd. I never use pronouns when talking with my friends.

I'd have thought it was obvious I meant when asking about said friend not talking to them directly. Confused
For example I met up with their wife recently. She asked after my dc. I asked after non binary friend, specifically did they get the job they applied for.

Hawkins001 · 25/12/2021 00:15

Reading with intrigue

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 25/12/2021 00:15

Well it doesn’t look like OP is coming back but here goes anyway.

I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity.

Male people “identifying as” women in a patriarchal, male supremacist society where women are still fighting for our human rights, and indeed seeing them rolled back more and more, is necessarily a misogynistic act that harms all women and girls.

Oppressors “identifying into” the oppressed class necessarily removes the ability of the oppressed to name and resist their oppression. We have seen it over and over again that falsely including any biologically male people in the category of “women” has nothing but negative consequences for women. The only people it benefits are the male ones, the oppressor group. What’s in it for women, the oppressed group? Nothing.

I’ll be fucked if I’m going to “respect” that. No. You are the one who should be respecting the right of female people to have a name that is ours and ours alone, not yours to appropriate. The right to be recognised as a discrete group, separate from male people, for legal and social purposes where sex matters. Full stop.

I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Yes. You are different. You are male. Not female. Different. Not better, not worse, just different. It’s not our fault. It’s nobody’s fault. It’s just life. You know you’re male and it’s the cognitive dissonance between that knowledge and the fantasy you wish were reality that is mentally and emotionally exhausting you: your inability to accept reality as it is - and that’s what you need to focus on.

Hating everything about how you were born is a serious psychological condition/MH issue for which you need and deserve support, but it doesn’t mean you’re entitled to demand that everyone else collude with you in a lie. It’s your responsibility to get the therapy/whatever form of treatment you need, to put the work in, to find a way to live with and ultimately heal whatever trauma caused this very sad self loathing.

Doing that kind of work is hard and painful, I know, but it’s your responsibility to do it if you want to be at peace with yourself, with who you are.

All I hear you saying is that you want to dodge that responsibility and make it the job of women to sacrifice ourselves, our needs, our rights, our safety, our integrity and our self respect in order to make you feel better about yourself, and save you the effort. Save you an onerous task no matter what the cost to us.

The job of women to be your service humans, in fact.

And I say again, no. Fuck that.

I am actually fucking furious that you have the nerve to come here and ask women to do your dirty work for you and try to make out we’re being mean to you if we won’t. No. You’re being mean. You’re being mean to all women and girls and to the women of this board in particular.

You’re trying to bully us from a position of male privilege, privilege that goes so deep you probably aren’t even aware you have it - because you’ve never known what it’s like not to have it. You didn’t suffer the psychological mutilation that goes hand in hand with being socialised female in a sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal world.

Yes, you have your trauma, and I have compassion for all individuals who’ve suffered trauma. But guess what? We have trauma too. We have more fucking trauma, collectively as a sex, than you can shake a stick at, than you could possibly imagine. And we have trauma individually, as individual female people who have grown up in a world where we were told from birth we were the lesser sex and were treated accordingly, and who have suffered the consequences of that, in myriad different forms.

We have trauma that you frankly don’t seem to give a damn about, while demanding that we put all our feelings aside in order to make it all alright for you.

No. No, no, no, no, no.

I will not use your pronouns. I will not call you a woman. I will not pretend that you are not male, not different from me, that reality doesn’t exist, that I am the bully and you are the vulnerable victim. You need to stop trying to bully and control women. If we don’t want to collude in your fantasy, it’s your job to deal with how that makes you feel, not to try and manipulate us into saying the words you want us to say, repeating the lies you want to hear, behaving the way you want us to behave.

We are not your puppets. We are autonomous human beings.

Do try to respect that.

Stroopwaffle5000 · 25/12/2021 00:24

I would quite happily use your preferred pronouns, however, unless you were extremely convincing such as Blair White, I would still think of you as a man dressing as a woman. It may be because I'm not neurotypical, but my brain just cannot allow me to. I have a transwoman friend, but I cannot see her as a biological woman because she has an Adams apple, a masculine face and hands and a deeper voice. She also holds herself differently to women.

Stroopwaffle5000 · 25/12/2021 00:28

Also what does identifying like a women feel like? I have no idea and I am one! Is it the urge to wear makeup and women's clothes? What is it that you get from being a woman that you don't get from being a man?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 25/12/2021 00:40

What is it that you get from being a woman that you don't get from being a man?

That’s one of those million dollar questions, Stroopwaffle.

Impossible to answer (in genderist terms) without recourse to stereotypes.

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 25/12/2021 01:01

@Stroopwaffle5000

Also what does identifying like a women feel like? I have no idea and I am one! Is it the urge to wear makeup and women's clothes? What is it that you get from being a woman that you don't get from being a man?
I’ve no idea either.

If I could bottle “Essence of Woman” I’d either make a fortune or be hounded out of town for selling snake oil.