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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
CiaoForDiNiaoSaur · 24/12/2021 21:02

@FrippEnos

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

And lesbians don't (usually) want sex with a penis.

Unless they change the definition of lesbian, no lesbian wants sex with the male sex organ.

Yes sorry. I forget that you can't read my mind so need to post a whole idea not half. I meant lesbians (actual female ones) don't like penis.
It's the transwomen trying to use the term lesbian to include them (as male bodied people) that are causing the problem.

Not sure that that's any clearer Xmas Blush

FrippEnos · 24/12/2021 21:06

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

Sorry as well, thanks for clarifying. I tend to jump in when I see that.

CorvusPurpureus · 24/12/2021 21:08

@Calmyourselfdown

I am a woman who is happy to be referred to as cis, as I am not trans. I am also on this board to try and understand where the GC and their concerns are coming from. I believe that sex and gender are two separate things. What I have learned so far, and this is purely my observation, is that although many GC people would not deliberately set out to upset or hurt trans people, it is impossible for them to be completely respectful and accepting of trans people, as the basis of being trans is that sex is your physical parts/chromosomes etc but your gender identity is different. If GC people don’t believe that gender identity exists at all, they can never fully accept or respect it. This, in my mind, is why it always reaches stalemate. Going back to OPs statement about chromosomes/how they were born - it bemuses me to see so many comments on various threads about ‘changing sex’. All of my trans friends, (I am definitely not speaking for all trans people here) like OP, are completely aware of how they were born, and know that nothing changes that fact. What they are doing with treatment is to make their bodies feel more in alignment with their gender. They are not trying to rewrite biology. But people who don’t acknowledge gender identity are never going to accept that - which is why the debate is at an impasse. I really hope some peace can be found.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

Well, no, because you're assuming that 'accept and respect' = 'embrace and share', which it doesn't.

I live in a very religious country but am an atheist. I completely 'accept & respect' my friends' right to hold & express their beliefs. If anyone suggested they should be prevented from doing so, I would be furious on their behalf.

However, I am unlikely ever to share those beliefs. I've considered religion carefully & my reaction is one big NOPE.

Which is of course, completely 'accepted & respected' in turn by my religious friends or we couldn't be friends.

Transgenderism as a belief system is currently at a stage where it really struggles with being told that non-adherents exist, & screaming 'Repent Motherfucker' at us isn't going to work. Once it's got itself through that phase, sure, we can all work through the 'impasse'.

Artichokeleaves · 24/12/2021 21:10

This does show the change of it.

Please use x pronouns, because it respects and affirms that I am a woman.

Please accept me using x facilities even though it excludes females from any resources or facilities, because it respects and affirms that I am a woman.

Please accept me providing rape crisis care and rape examinations to you even though you have specifically requested that you have a female practitioner and would be distressed by a male one, because it respects and affirms that you see me as a woman.

Please accept that some lesbians have penises and 'learn to cope' (a direct quote from a well known TW academic and athlete) with sex with a male body that you do not want and do not enjoy but should work hard to overcome your resistance to, because you being a female homosexual permitting me to have sex with you respects and affirms that you see me as a woman.

At what point in this do female people get to have boundaries and to say no? The answer, honestly, is not at all, isn't it?

At what point in this is there any mutual respect for the female? Any mutual caring about her as a person, her views, her needs, her sense of identity? We're talking about humans. Not service droids.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/12/2021 21:12

Just saying... it's common courtesy not to start threads then fuck off.

Floisme · 24/12/2021 21:14

If I may give you a tip op, next time you want to initiate a dialogue about courtesy and respect it might be an idea to hang around for the discussion rather than starting a thread and then disappearing. You're welcome, happy Christmas.

Floisme · 24/12/2021 21:14

Ha Mrs TP beat me to it Grin

Crowdfundingforcake · 24/12/2021 21:15

Ploppitty plop.

However, I am appreciating the input and cogent arguments from respondents very much, thank you.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/12/2021 21:16

@Floisme

Ha Mrs TP beat me to it Grin
Great minds and all that!
Calmyourselfdown · 24/12/2021 21:19

I appreciate those who have taken the time and have responded in such a detailed, measured way.
And for those of you who have suffered abuse at the hands of men, I am sorry that you have experienced that, being no stranger to it myself, in past times.
As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

‘From the outside looking in’, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/12/2021 21:22

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

Sports and prisons.

ArabellaScott · 24/12/2021 21:22

Aye, Artichoke. Courtesy affords consideration to other parties. Courtesy would listen to women, grasp why they won't refer to males as 'she' and respect that choice. Courtesy wouldn't impinge on women's spaces. Courtesy would grant female humans the same rights, respect, and care as male humans. Courtesy doesn't turn up on your doorstep demanding to know why you won't comply with irrational demands. That looks more like hectoring, manipulation and coercion, to me.

Helmetbymidnight · 24/12/2021 21:26

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

no, the problems lie not with individuals but an ideology that puts unverifiable, vague notions of gender over the material reality of sex.
its not 'predatory' men who are smashing women's records in sports, is it? its tw-
as for the women who support that...Hmm

Artichokeleaves · 24/12/2021 21:26

@Calmyourselfdown

I appreciate those who have taken the time and have responded in such a detailed, measured way. And for those of you who have suffered abuse at the hands of men, I am sorry that you have experienced that, being no stranger to it myself, in past times. As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

‘From the outside looking in’, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

So you're ok with the females excluded from any services and resources and facilities so that your male people can have their choice from all the facilities?

That's the reality.

It is possible to find ways to do this and meet everyones needs, not agree that the females who can will fit around male prioritised need and the females who can't.....? Oh well. They're only female. We'll pretend they don't matter.

I'm not raising little girls to believe that's their future.

BackwardsTurret · 24/12/2021 21:30

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident

Always noticed. Women were just too polite to say. Although you forget that once there was only a very small amount of transpeople previously. The concept of self ID was supposed to accommodate around 5000 people, with around half of that number being male to female. The impact would not have been particularly noticeable in day to day life. However with the explosion of people self IDing to 500,000 plus, now there is a significant problem with regard to womens safety. Particularly as the majority of transwomen keep their penis. Which is understandable. But they should not be in women's spaces. Its not ok.

BackwardsTurret · 24/12/2021 21:31

I'm not raising little girls to believe that's their future.

Hell no.

Cherryblossoms85 · 24/12/2021 21:31

Why wouldn't I call you a woman if that's what you want? That is a non issue. The thing I don't understand is why that means I have to direct everybody else to refer to me as female. That's not inclusive. Being inclusive is ist being generally courteous and respectful, which I am, so I don't appreciate weird directives from HR to "self identify".

Helmetbymidnight · 24/12/2021 21:34

yes the trans umbrella has expanded massively- not only cross dressers, non binaries, etc etc but anyone who feels their um gender doesnt 'match' their sex- why any woman would feel our hard won rights, protections, sports and spaces should be opened up to any one who fancies is beyond me.

Thirtytimesround · 24/12/2021 21:34

Why should I? I don’t like being told to say things that are completely untrue. With respect, you have zero idea how it feels to be a woman.

This is a bit like a white person saying that they feel they are black and demanding that everyone refer to them as black “out of politeness.”

When you ask someone to refer to you as a woman, you’re demanding that they make a verbal affirmation of your beliefs at the expense of theirs. You’re asking that they make a poltical statement in support of politics they may not agree with. You’re putting your feelings above theirs.

There’s a massive building in North Korea. It offends the dictator there, so all the locals pretned that they can’t see it. If you ask them about it, they deny that they see anything there. When you demand that I deny reality and buy into your delusion about yourself, you’re acting like that North Korean dictator.

When you ask me to lie or you, it doesn’t just affect you, it also affects me.

Linguini · 24/12/2021 21:36

@Calmyourselfdown

I appreciate those who have taken the time and have responded in such a detailed, measured way. And for those of you who have suffered abuse at the hands of men, I am sorry that you have experienced that, being no stranger to it myself, in past times. As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

‘From the outside looking in’, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

Gender ideology myth number 6 "You can never tell" Coupled with "It Never Happens".

Truth is: You can tell and it does happen.

GoldenBlue · 24/12/2021 21:37

Happy to be courteous and will use your preferred name and pronoun. However I believe trans women are trans women and I can't refer to trans women as women as the ramifications to women are significant if they become a subcategory of their own sex.

But I don't have an issue with any individual trans women that, as you do, doesn't encroach on women's single sex spaces.

Ionlydomassiveones · 24/12/2021 21:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Waitwhat23 · 24/12/2021 21:42

I also find the whole 'transwomen have always used single sex spaces and it's fine, you couldn't even notice' argument a very strange one.

Taking away the idea that women very likely did know and were too polite or scared to say anything, someone using a single sex space knowing that they shouldn't be (due to their sex) is hardly showing that they respect boundaries around women's needs. Why this is used as a 'gotcha' so often is a bit baffling.

NotBadConsidering · 24/12/2021 21:49

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident

This contradiction was brought up on another thread recently. Of course women can notice it. But:

Either women are being twattish pointing it out, and transwomen wouldn’t claim “you can’t tell” and would need to acknowledge that everyone can, or women can tell but don’t say anything, and transwomen wrongly take this as evidence that women can’t tell.

Agrona · 24/12/2021 21:55

@Calmyourselfdown

I appreciate those who have taken the time and have responded in such a detailed, measured way. And for those of you who have suffered abuse at the hands of men, I am sorry that you have experienced that, being no stranger to it myself, in past times. As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

‘From the outside looking in’, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

Incorrect. I have been in the situation more than once when, on entering a woman's toilet, unconsciously noticing a transwoman. On one occassion the person threatened me for hesitating/noticing.

To whom would I report the incident?

The forced use of pronouns may be damaging as pointed out in the linked article.

uncommongroundmedia.com/banned-from-medium-pronouns-are-rohypnol/