Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

You describe what you see - I can't dictate how you perceive the world around you. I describe what I see - and you cannot dictate how I perceive the world around me. If I perceive a male nobody has the right to demand that I lie and pretend that they are female.

I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity.

But Women are adult human females, which you have confirmed you are not.

Woman is really not a 'gender identity' word but the collective noun to describe the reality of adult human females of my sex class - 3 or so billion of them, including women like your mother and mine. Woman, female and lesbian are words which are already taken. Outside of genderism, there is no reason for a male person to appropriate the word 'woman' to describe themself, however feminine they feel. And it is not a belief system I subscribe to.

So, thank you for asking but, as you might imagine, on reflection, no thank you, I would rather not. Hope that is courteous enough for you, OP.

A couple of quick questions if I may about the etiquette on fora which cater primarily for transwomen: Do GC people come on there and reproach TW say for their lack of respect for single sex spaces? Or demand respect from people who frankly don't know them from Adam?

In case it is different on there, a friendly heads up that it's really not de rigeur on Mumsnet to write a long first post and then ignore pages of responses... People - well, women mainly - have invested time and energy replying to you, OP so it seems somewhat churlish to fail to engage with their ideas.

If it is for the screenshots, mumsnet will probably just delete the thread in the end (which is a depressing waste of Women's labour replying) but an occupational hazard in these parts...

I haven't read all the responses, so this is just seconding the many who have no doubt said the same thing:

Courtesy is a social function. Within social situations, no polite person will object to harmless requests. Using your preferred pronouns is similar to using your preferred name. If you decide "Jane" isn't you and you'd rather be called "Jocelyn," no reason why anyone wouldn't go along.

The law is a different matter. If everyone could change their names, willy nilly, the loopholes for criminals are giant, just to begin with. The law isn't about politeness and courtesy. It's about rights.

The question at that level isn't how to "be kind" (Ardern to the contrary notwithstanding). It's how to make sure people's rights don't get trampled.

Forcing a rape survivor to call her attacker "she" is a violation. One carried out by the supposed law in that case, which is even worse. Being polite and "kind" about self-ID means sexual assault statistics approach uselessness. Something like 2% of those crimes are committed by women, the other 98% by men. It doesn't take many opportunists under color of transness to make it look like, oh my god!, 5% of those crimes are now committed by "women." 10%!

That obviously affects women's fundamental right to being free from harm. It's so obvious that I'm sure you must know that. Mixing up social courtesy with disrespect for women's rights is the problem. You can ask for social courtesy. You can't demand it.

All women can ask of you is respect for their rights. The same right to define their own group that all other groups have. The right to safety. The right to assemble (and therefore to exclude). In a rights situation, not a social one, courtesy may have to give way to reality.

@Calmyourselfdown

I appreciate those who have taken the time and have responded in such a detailed, measured way. And for those of you who have suffered abuse at the hands of men, I am sorry that you have experienced that, being no stranger to it myself, in past times. As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing, and without incident (I’m sure there will be some exceptions - there always are), I guess my feeling is that as GRA reform won’t change that, then I will continue to support it.

‘From the outside looking in’, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

You are either rather naive or you are believing echo chamber myths if you believe women did not notice males amongst them.

Please don’t continue with that gaslighting myth. What is the difference? In the past, the occurrence really was a rarity. Now? The numbers are much higher.

And now, the sense of entitlement has led to aggressive hostility from some people, if there is anything but ‘acceptance without exception’.

I am quite certain that I wasn’t ever asked if it was acceptable to me for a male to use single sex spaces meant for my use. Yet, here we are. Some males with extreme views have claimed outrage that they might be denied something that they should not have been allowed to claim in the first place.

And yet, some other women have decided for me that their friend’s or their loved one’s desire to access that single sex space has priority over my right and need.

Who has given you the right to decide that other women’s needs come second to your friends?

Have you ever thought about the women who are now excluded due to religion or past trauma? Or did the fact that they are most likely the group that are, in reality, the most vulnerable and marginalised people in the country not occur to you? Because you have been sold the other myth, that the subset of males you seek to allow access for are the most marginalised and vulnerable.

The thing about the most marginalised and vulnerable group is that they have rarely changed demographic through out life eternal. By their nature they were also most likely hidden too, making them very easy to forget and very easy to speak over.

After all, that is the nature of being the hidden ‘most vulnerable and marginalised’ isn’t it?

But they are obviously not your friends, those who you have prioritised.

I’ve treated the TW who attends yoga classes with courtesy throughout. They haven’t reciprocated - decided to use the women’s’ changing rooms, open space, no cubicles - after the last session, this despite there being another unisex changing area with cubicles available. I’m not willing to strip off and shower in front of any male-bodied person that I don’t choose to, so I waited in the reception area until they came out. I’ll be ignoring them completely in future.

I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity.

I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born.

Why does anyone’s identity as something they are not (and you acknowledge you are male) demand respect?

Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

I can assure you, that your expectation is only superficially benign and inconsequential. It is obviously, important to you.

It is also rather important to many women. Because to respect your seemingly small demand leads to a world full of demands.

While you don’t want to admit it, your expectation that we change our language to suit your personal needs, is repeated on a much larger scale.

There is a transitioned male academic who has neatly stated that since others call transwomen ‘women’, why should anyone ever deny them access to everything for women only.

That is the reality.

Like that weird law in some places that if you allow the neighbour to use your veggie patch for long enough, they can claim ownership to that land.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy?

Common courtesy? That people refer to you as the sex you are not? People can speak to you without referring to sex at all. If you do not like being spoken about without having she/her pronouns used, that is your issue to deal with. It is not respectful to expect others to use female pronouns for someone they understand is not female.

I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media.

You need to accept that you are complicit in pushing women to effectively erode their own rights through adapting their language to suit your needs.

I've been dragged into this unwillingly.

You are dragging people into your personal treatment plan. What right do you have to do that?

You are claiming victimhood here. Yet you have never once in your post acknowledged the needs of women to be able to have language that specifically refers to them and the freedom to use it.

I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

By the way, did you also ask Lesbians (other than your partner) is they minded you acquiring their words?

But this is a another statement about your claim to victim status. No one denies you, personally, exist. However, it is you who is expecting that people accommodate your need to ‘not be male’.

You really come across as not actually ever understanding that other people should not have to be part of some kind of treatment plan for your need to not be the thing that you acknowledge you immutably are. People can treat you with the same human right of dignity without referring to your sex, unless it is necessary. But you cannot expect them to actively support your treatment plan.

Particularly since it seems you also cannot acknowledge that the previous ‘kindness’ is now being positioned as a claim to rights. To access to sports, to roles and opportunities that were designed to progress and encourage females due to both the needs of their bodies and to sexist discrimination because of their bodies. Something that females will not escape by ‘identifying’ as men no matter how they try.

In fact, you have come onto a feminist board to complain that women are not being kind. Do you fall into the classic, ‘I identify as you, but only my version of you. And only because I don’t want to be me and there is no other options.’? Because you display little understanding of what being female means to many women.

You certainly should not be harassed though. In saying that, not using pronouns or using the word woman to describe you is not harassment unless someone is deliberately taunting you. And of course, no one should be taunting you.

You talk about character, but your post comes across as ‘me, me, me’. Could it be that people ARE responding to the content of your character? Do you believe that people owe you the extra active accommodations that you demand? Or is just being neutral is ok too?

I don't care who anyone identifies as- I just don't think male born people should compete in women's sport

I will trust that you are in good faith, OP, if we are clear that the courtesy you ask for goes both ways. I am happy to acknowledge your identity as transgender--that is authentic and true. And I can avoid using the term man as long as it is clear that we both understand that gender identity does not change sex. But I would absolutely expect you to respect my physical boundaries as a woman and to not claim that you are an actual woman. I do believe that transgender people are real, valid members of society who should not be erased. They should be respected AS transgender men and women.

I will use sex-appropriate pronouns. My belief is that pronouns are sex-based and therefore fixed and unchanging.

So that’s a “you” if I am speaking directly to you, “They/them” if I am speaking to someone else about a group that you are in. And “he/him” if I am speaking about you and not addressing you directly.

There is no conceivable reason for me to refer to any male as “she/her”, and I will not be compelled or bullied into doing so.
In the case that I am specifically asked not to refer to someone by the correct sex-based pronouns, I shall endeavour to use their name in place of any pronoun instead.

By the way, did you also ask Lesbians (other than your partner) is they minded you acquiring their words?

Just further on this. You will understand completely then that there will be those who will lie to you and say they are ok if you claim the word ‘lesbian’ for you as a male. When the reality is they do not.

Because you are insisting that women politely go along with pronouns and whatever language you seem to feel can just apply to you because you want it to.

So… scratch my question. Because I just realised it would not matter. You would ask the question. People would answer you politely so as not to offend you or hurt your feelings.

You would then feel you had enough permission to claim the word as your own. Based on the polite replies (ie coerced via societal understanding of politeness, and by kindness).

See how this works?

Perhaps some of your frustration is because you are actually aware of this? And you so want it to be true but you realise that you will now never be sure of the authenticity of people’s reaction or intention.

That really would be hard to deal with and I would need extensive therapy to deal with the dissonance. That of wanting that particular politeness, but not being able to trust it. Because it is not based on widely known truth, just your personal definition of that particular truth that you have forced people to support.

A truth that until recently was based on immutable facts.

Until some people decided they needed those facts to be malleable and shifting to cope with their lives.

So OP takes the time to write a long post on Christmas Eve then doesn't come back? Hmm.

If OP comes back: are pronouns the worst thing happening to you by GC women? I'm wondering if any men hurt your feelings like this and if you ask them why too?

I object to compelled pronouns because it ends up in women like me - a rape survivor - being told they'd need to be "re-educated" when seeking rape support services. I also don't usually know what pronouns people use to refer to me behind me back, and I try to focus on other things. There are some things I can't control and I try to accept that.

OP takes the time to write a long post on Christmas Eve then doesn't come back? Hmm.
I was just about to post the same thing: 236 replies, none of them acknowledged. What happened to OP's "common courtesy"?

Oh, the OP won't be back. The post was for screenshots.

The OP's sole post was a game of two halves: in paragraphs 1 - 4, the OP drew a portrait of shy, gentle transwoman who wants nothing more than to be loved and accepted by society. Paragraphs 5 - 8 go on the attack and insinuate previous posts refused to acknowledge the OP's preferred pronouns and who were rude and inconsiderate to the OP.

tl;dr: screenshots.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

Oh, the OP won't be back. The post was for screenshots.

The OP's sole post was a game of two halves: in paragraphs 1 - 4, the OP drew a portrait of shy, gentle transwoman who wants nothing more than to be loved and accepted by society. Paragraphs 5 - 8 go on the attack and insinuate previous posts refused to acknowledge the OP's preferred pronouns and who were rude and inconsiderate to the OP.

tl;dr: screenshots.

Do long replies. Explain things in detail. Harder to screenshot for twitter.

Not RTFT but isn't this another man coming on to lecture women to be kind? It is not common courtesy to demand women lie about who they see. To tell girls they must not refer to men entering their spaces as men but must lie and refer to them as women, to hide the fact their boundaries are ignored and their safeguarding risked. It is not common courtesy to expect rape victims to refer to their male rapist as 'she'. It is not common courtesy to deny us our identity, to prevent accurate data to be collected on women's experiences. It is not not common courtesy to demand the rules of gramme are changed to fit a small group of individuals. To demand that women are blamed for men's crimes.

By allowing men to claim the language we use to refer to ourselves we are allowing ourselves to be written out of existence as a group.

If I was speaking to a transwomen then I would use their name or 'you' as I would speaking to anyone.

I've got nothing against transgender poeple at all and do treat them like I treat anyone else. But it's just my rights and safety as a woman being totally undermined and eroded that I'm furious about.
I don't want to share a changing room or locker room where I'm naked with a massive 6 foot person with a penis.
I don't feel safe in a changing room where there are big people with penises also changing.
I've been raped and abused and I just don't feel safe anymore anywhere and I've stopped going out shopping and using swimming pools. Its making my world smaller.

I'm happy to respect anyone's pronouns though in conversation with a trans person it would rarely come up I think. I wouldn't refer to someone as she or they when talking direct to them. I don't declare my pronouns as It's obvious I'm a woman.

I understand discrimination and abhor it. As a woman I have faced it since a small child, at school, socially and in my career. I would like my experience respected and recognised too and that I'm a feminist and proud if it. Just as I respect your right to live the life you want to lead and have the relationships you choose.

I think when your world relies on people being forced, through expectation, work rules, or any other type of force, to maintain your emotional safety zone, you tend to forget that other people have needs. A small number of people will not have any conscience at all about that. It might pay to question that small group’s motivation.

But either way, if you choose to participate in creating a world of safety for that person, that is your business. Stop telling anyone else that they need to perpetuate that version of reality for others.

Most of the population never get to live anywhere but the real world with its brutal honesty. And I could not live in a world where I had to wonder whether that person was being honest with me just in using my fucking pronouns. Let alone what else they are being dishonest in any way over.

Yes, it is exhausting OP. But you are intent on making others guilty for that exhaustion when the reality is, it is an internal matter.

@EarthSight

OP, thank you for engaging.

I was about to write a fairly lengthy post, but please could you give a sign that you are still on here and still reading? Some people just post once and that's the last you see if them, so we have no idea if any of our efforts are actually read.

They haven’t engaged - they’ve written 1 post then buggered off. That’s not engaging.

I'm happy to respect anyone's pronouns

Would you be happy to do so if they were your rapist and you were forced to refer to him as 'she'?

Or is you had given up your adolescence to training for a sport you loved and were beaten by a man who started yesterday? Would you be happy to refer to him as 'her'?

Or if you were eight years old and trying to describe why you felt uncomfortable with the man in the ladies changing rooms?

And if you accept the words women/her/she as no longer exclusively referring to adult human females, are you happy to be referred to as a body with a vagina?

I’m amazed at the number of posters who say they’d use female pronouns for a male to ‘be kind’. It isn’t being kind. It’s feeding into someone’s delusion / dysphoria.
If an extremely underweight or overweight person asked you if you thought they were too fat / thin, would you go along with their delusion just to be kind? Even though their belief about their size could kill them?
Where do you draw the line? Some have said they wouldn’t use opposite sex pronouns when referring to sex offenders. What about trans people taking awards meant for a particular sex? What about in prison? What about people providing personal, intimate services?
It’s playing into the hands of groups like Stoneball. The plan is, let’s persuade everyone to be kind and use preferred pronouns which go against perceptions of reality, and before you know it, bingo. The very definition of man / woman is changed forever in everyone’s mind. You cannot advocate for single sex provision if you blur, or even erase the definitions.
So no, I would not use ‘preferred pronouns’ but that does not mean I’m not being kind, it means I’m being honest. I won’t lie. Not for anyone.

@Helleofabore

I think when your world relies on people being forced, through expectation, work rules, or any other type of force, to maintain your emotional safety zone, you tend to forget that other people have needs. A small number of people will not have any conscience at all about that. It might pay to question that small group’s motivation.

But either way, if you choose to participate in creating a world of safety for that person, that is your business. Stop telling anyone else that they need to perpetuate that version of reality for others.

Most of the population never get to live anywhere but the real world with its brutal honesty. And I could not live in a world where I had to wonder whether that person was being honest with me just in using my fucking pronouns. Let alone what else they are being dishonest in any way over.

Yes, it is exhausting OP. But you are intent on making others guilty for that exhaustion when the reality is, it is an internal matter.

Brilliantly said Helleofabore

'Preferred pronouns' are not a 'simple kindness'. This is why I won't use them:

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/10/if-we-dont-we-get-a-punishment-no-freedom-of-speech-for-women-in-prison-says-dr-kate-coleman-director-of-keep-prisons-single-sex/

I find myself getting more "radical" about things like pronouns.

Even a few months ago I would have said it was right to use anyone's pronouns, wasn't even particularly bothered about which toilet people use.

But things like the Lia Thomas scandal are changing me. We are, in the 21st century, having women being offered "mental health support" so they can be more submissive and accepting of male people usurping their rights, this is literally going right back to nineteenth century psychiatry! We're being told that feminism is about women supporting "oppressed groups" and not helping the advancement of women, "white feminism" being the insult of choice. Women are being redefined before our eyes as a class of service humans.

So now I think, maybe the "no compromisers" were right all along? Because we certainly aren't seeing any compromise from the other side.

@HPFA

I find myself getting more "radical" about things like pronouns.

Even a few months ago I would have said it was right to use anyone's pronouns, wasn't even particularly bothered about which toilet people use.

But things like the Lia Thomas scandal are changing me. We are, in the 21st century, having women being offered "mental health support" so they can be more submissive and accepting of male people usurping their rights, this is literally going right back to nineteenth century psychiatry! We're being told that feminism is about women supporting "oppressed groups" and not helping the advancement of women, "white feminism" being the insult of choice. Women are being redefined before our eyes as a class of service humans.

So now I think, maybe the "no compromisers" were right all along? Because we certainly aren't seeing any compromise from the other side.

Yep, all of this. I’m the same.