Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you that the OP hasn’t been back

It is spectacularly tone deaf to complain about how women don't accept gender as real, and ignore the ways that women are treated as second class citizens because of our sex.
Single sex services exist because of the way women are treated, and the risks we face. We can fall pregnant, or die. Focus on gender presentation if you like, but don't complain about how we focus on sex.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

Well yes. The problem is when predatory men can access women's spaces purely by saying they are women. My own abuser told me it was a shame he couldn't volunteer at Brownies/guides so I couldn't have that escape from him.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

And how do you tell which males are pretending to be trans and which are genuinely trans? How can women tell, when being asked to accept males into their spaces?

Women called for equity because our sex disadvantages us in a world made for males. We carved out rights that would try to correct the vast inequities faces by women who bleed, breed and feed, and have their lives impacted by those biological functions. No transwoman will ever face period pain, pregnancy or birth injury, let alone the million small impacts of a live lived as a female.

Womanhood is not hair and make up and clothes, and it's an utterly insulting, demeaning and sexist idea to try and diminish it to those inconsequential irrelevancies.

Calm

I don't think that people don't accept that some have a gender identity

Where it can fall down is if the person with a gender identity assumes one for other people... people who often have had gender used to harm them , restrict their options , belittle thier thoughts

A woman who was dismissed as having a weak girlie brain isn't likely to take kindly to someone who believe in gender , buying into the narrative of lady brain is aligning yourself with my bullies.

If you truly don't make a thing of it , I'll call you whatever , but you have to understand that victims of harm, of bullying will not can not respond neutral or supportive of the ideas that underpin that harm

It’s not that I don’t think gender identity exists. Identity is very personal and complicated and if you perceived yourself to have a gender identity then that’s how you feel. Much like religious people’s religious identity, which I understand exists even though I don’t have one or agree with their beliefs.

But because identity is personal, your belief about what you are shouldn’t give you the power to force my speech. Pronouns describe sex, that’s what they are for, and they do an important job for me as a woman, letting me know what sex someone is, because that has a big impact on my feelings, safety, behaviour etc in various situations.

I get to use pronouns to describe sex, because I don’t subscribe to the ideology that says that’s not what they describe. And the reason I don’t subscribe to it is because having gone over it and debated it many times, it makes no sense and it’s proponents never make a good clear argument for it or provide any evidence.

I am happy to use a person’s chosen name becthat is reasonable and to be polite, I am prepared to use “they” or avoid pronouns. Yes it’s awkward but that’s a compromise I can make between my beliefs and yours. Making a compromise on both sides is fair.

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

But if you identified as a man and went out with men does that make you gay?

Some of the current Trans dogma says that as a lesbian you (general) must accept that transwomen are women and that if you do not want to sleep with a female penis (that is the current term) then you are a transphobe.

This has led to quite a few lesbians saying that they have been coerced in to having with someone that they don't want to have sex with.

I my book (and the law) if you are coerced into sex then it is rape.

@FrippEnos

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

But if you identified as a man and went out with men does that make you gay?

Some of the current Trans dogma says that as a lesbian you (general) must accept that transwomen are women and that if you do not want to sleep with a female penis (that is the current term) then you are a transphobe.

This has led to quite a few lesbians saying that they have been coerced in to having with someone that they don't want to have sex with.

I my book (and the law) if you are coerced into sex then it is rape.

Personally I think no it wouldn't make me a gay man. But I guess I wouldn't identify as a straight woman either.

I absolutely agree that sex by coercion is rape. And lesbians don't (usually) want sex with a penis. I think transwomen claiming transphobia if lesbians won't sleep with them is horrendous.

It would feel strange to have to have to go along with someone to the extent that you play a role whereby you join in with pretending they are something you know they are not. If an adult identified as a baby, I would also find it unreasonable to refer to them as 'that baby'. etc. Even if they really, really think they are and they think it is perfectly reasonable.

I probably wouldn't use pronouns or sex (or age!) descriptors in those scenarios. I'd say 'that person' (or name). Maybe they (as in used to avoid using someone's sex).

Mind you, if they identify as transhuman I'd have to just use name.

But people who don’t acknowledge gender identity are never going to accept that - which is why the debate is at an impasse.*
I really hope some peace can be found.*

That could be possible once males, however they identify, stopped using women's sex segregated spaces, including sport.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women

What does this mean? Do you not think transwomen, who are males, are not capable of predatory behaviour? Dont you accept people are who they say they are? Acceptance without exception?

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

We have had the ability to openly talk about the different types of trans women in this board(and in most spaces). I think I can still refer you to the trans widow escape committee threads, though.

But yes, in answer to the first part the problem is always and has always been predatory men.

I believe that sex and gender are two separate things.

the basis of being trans is that sex is your physical parts/chromosomes etc but your gender identity is different.

All of my trans friends, (I am definitely not speaking for all trans people here) like OP, are completely aware of how they were born, and know that nothing changes that fact. What they are doing with treatment is to make their bodies feel more in alignment with their gender. They are not trying to rewrite biology.

The trouble is that if gender identity is accepted to be a seperate thing from sex, none of it makes any sense.

What is gender, if it is seperate from sex?

How does someone make their body more in alignment with their gender, if the two are seperate things? If I believed in gender identity but also accepted that my sex was unchangeable, I can identify as a man and have no desire to take testosterone and have invasive surgery, no?

Urgh I should have proof read.

I meant we have had the ability to talk openly, taken away from us on this board.

Perhaps OP is super busy doing Christmas Eve wifey work like trimming and the sprouts, peeling veg, etc?

So OP’s idea of Xmas fun was to launch a post like this and fuck off.

I’m so sorry you had nothing better to do on Xmas Eve, that’s terrible. 😢

@RedToothBrush, I agree with much of what you say, but I don’t think it’s OK to refer to another person as “it”, unless they specifically ask you to.

It’s arguably even more dehumanising than “menstruator”, “cervix-haver” etc.

I suppose I don't see why sex is being referred to when people are talking about their gender identify. As the eminent Prof Winston said, people cannot ever change their sex. He or She refers to sex.

I wonder if those who adhere to a belief in gender identify could create terminology which refers to that belief. Rather than using terms which refer to sex. Just a thought.

I wonder if those who adhere to a belief in gender identify could create terminology which refers to that belief. Rather than using terms which refer to sex. Just a thought.

Aren't those feminine and masculine?

@Kudupoo - wonderful post. Thank you 🙏

Going back to OPs statement about chromosomes/how they were born - it bemuses me to see so many comments on various threads about ‘changing sex’.
All of my trans friends, (I am definitely not speaking for all trans people here) like OP, are completely aware of how they were born, and know that nothing changes that fact. What they are doing with treatment is to make their bodies feel more in alignment with their gender. They are not trying to rewrite biology.
But people who don’t acknowledge gender identity are never going to accept that - which is why the debate is at an impasse.
I really hope some peace can be found.

I don't think rational transpeople believe they can literally change sex. However, there is a very vocal, very aggressive minority of posters who have declared on many, many threads that sex is a spectrum not a binary, that human beings are not a dimorphic species and that a 'sex change' operation does exactly that. The posters on this board who question this are called transphobic and 'biological essentialists' and that we're obviously too stupid/old/out of date to understand. It comes up again and again and they are trying to rewrite biology and calling us bigots at the same time.

The debate is at an impasse because of the chilling effect of screaming 'transphobe!' at women who raise concerns about the erosion of single sex spaces, the dismissal and belittling of lesbians who relate experiences of being coerced into sex and the wholesale change to legislation and policies without impact consideration or consultation with women about things which will affect them. There's also stuff like this - www.terfisaslur.com which isn't exactly conducive to peaceful debate.

CiaoForDiNiaoSaur

And lesbians don't (usually) want sex with a penis.

Unless they change the definition of lesbian, no lesbian wants sex with the male sex organ.

You sound like the majority of transgender people. Just getting on with your life. I will always use your preferred pronouns. You are not a biological female nor do you claim to be but biology and gender identification are separate issues and I for one will always respect that it matters to you to be referred to in a certain way. If I am being honest, I don't agree with it (gender identity) because imo gender is a societal construct based on rigid and damaging sex stereotypes. Girls like make up, pink and sparkles. Boys like football, beer and fighting. I think that is hugely damaging. We should be looking at the boxes society wants to put us in and saying hell no. Instead of picking one of the boxes, flatten the boxes and chuck them in the recycling!

You are not the problem. TRAs who are attempting to erase women are the problem. If you and other transgender people would join with us in condemning people like 'Claire' who is a child sex abuser and commits beastiality then puts on a wig and wants to go to a woman's prison then it would go a long way towards separating genuine people who just want to live their lives with mutual respect and consideration and men who use your reality to get sick sexual thrills and invade single sex spaces.

You should be as outraged by the misuse and abuse as gender critical feminists are. You could do so much good if you added your voice to ours and said these perverts do NOT represent us. We do not stand with them.

What I have learned so far, and this is purely my observation, is that although many GC people would not deliberately set out to upset or hurt trans people, it is impossible for them to be completely respectful and accepting of trans people, as the basis of being trans is that sex is your physical parts/chromosomes etc but your gender identity is different. If GC people don’t believe that gender identity exists at all, they can never fully accept or respect it.

But isn't this rather like saying you can never fully accept or respect a Christian without believing in God and celebrating mass?

If TQ+ people don't believe that some people genuinely do not share their belief, define themselves by their sex, want and need sex based spaces and their own choice of language, then they can never fully accept or respect GC women. It works both ways. The solution to this cannot just be that GC women capitulate. The respect must be mutual and two different beliefs must find a way to live alongside each other. This will involve different facilities and mutually respecting the other group's needs and choices. Not removing one because the other finds it insulting. It's this lack of tolerance that causes the stalemate.

As an outsider looking in to this GC world, it appears to me that the real problems lie with predatory men, not trans women.

Should females only be permitted privacy, dignity, the right to assemble and be apart from males in female centric activities if it is agreed that the physical harm from the males present is objectively (and lets face it, that means males agree) intolerable?

Why is this not something females get to decide for themselves and have their own limits on? Why is the male voice and desire more important than theirs?

Even if every single male who ever entered a female space was absolutely lovely and harmless and could be proven so - their presence would still exclude some females from that female space because they are male. It's not ok to exclude some female people from any space, resource, facility or service so that male people can be happier with taking their best preferred choice from all of them - this is fundamentally sexist. It values male feelings and choices and self expression above basic human equality and civil rights of women.

The only solution must be that mixed sex spaces are available alongside female only, so that everyone's needs met. That will however require tolerance and acceptance on the part of all TQ+ people and their allies that female people have beliefs, needs and a right to exist too.

Using preferred pronouns hurts women, so I'm against it.

Men aren't women.

Sorry this happened to you.

Hope you have a great Christmas and all best wishes for the new year.

I'm gender critical. For me this means I don't believe TWAW, I believe that women are women and trans women and trans women. Different but equal and worthy of respect. I always call people by their chosen names and pronouns because I'm a polite and respectful person. My issue is that many TRAs and organisations want to erase women's sex-based rights, but that would in no way affect how I would interact with you, or indeed how I interact with my colleague who is on a MTF transition pathway.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I wonder if those who adhere to a belief in gender identify could create terminology which refers to that belief. Rather than using terms which refer to sex. Just a thought.

Aren't those feminine and masculine?

Are they fit for use as pronouns though. Could they replace she/he? For example would you use 'feminine/masculine takes feminine's/masculine's coffee with milk', instead of she/he takes her/his coffee with milk.

Also what gymnastics would be involved in looking at a man who identifies as trans, or a woman who identifies as trans? Who is masculine or feminine? Those who adhere to a belief in this ideology could have terms for a man who identifies as a woman, and terms for a woman who identifies as a man. Create clear gender identify pronouns to go along with this ideology. Not merely shoehorn pronouns which refer to sex and then say it isn't referring to sex really.