Rapes committed by women - JKR got me thinking

[scratchedbymycat]

JKR just tweeted again. I agree wholeheartedly with her views, but some of the responses have got me thinking.

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

(I promise I'm not trolling here. In fact, I'm hoping for some startlingly clear objective responses to fuel my arguments.)

For me, I find it downright hateful, after all the violence and hate directed towards women by men, that stats will now say 'women are doing it to women'. That makes me so damn angry. But is feeling offended by this, on principle, enough?

On crime stats and recording... Seth Abramson (I know) on Twitter commented that the fact the perpetrator has a penis will come up in the court case. So the court will know they are not biologically female.

Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender? (The only group who identify as women but are also bepenised).

How does a biological women rape another? Because I've seen claims on Twitter that some biological women have been found guilty of rape. Is this a lie?

I'm trying to tease my thoughts out. Only just starting to comment about the gender identity consequences for women to friends etc, and just want to be super clear when I say anything, and not to slip into emotional anger (which happens a lot for me).

There's a shocking story here about rape being used as an initiation into gangs and how some women, including a girl of 13, have been pressurised into becoming accomplices in that. It's the Daily Mail on gangs so I'd take it with a bit of a pinch of salt but it may explain some of the figures. The girl interviewed in this piece was convicted of rape at the age of 13: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4105224/Inside-shocking-secretive-world-gang-girls-one-woman-s-initiation-included-kidnap-rape-FRIEND.html

Still doesn't explain high percentage of sexual offenders amongst trans identified male prisoners in English prisons, nor does it explain the huge difference in percentage numbers of trans identified males in Scottish Prisons compared to female prisoners.

I don't think details of the prison population are very useful is assessing levels of innate criminality incidentally. Studies have shown that lesbians and gay men are also over represented in prisons, as are certain ethnic groups. I think that tells us more about the nature of society than it does any claim that lesbians and black people are inherently more criminal.

And yet, this is the very issue under discussion. The criminal prosecution of males who identify as females.

If you wish to discuss the prevalence and any particular discrimination to do with the numbers of LGBT people being prosecuted, then start a thread about that specifically.

In the meantime, the numbers are:

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

So, I ask the question again barley, since your post on 'it hasn't happened' is nonsense when looking at the UK wide figures, how many females are acceptable to be forced to call their attackers and rapists by female pronouns and refer to them as women. And same goes for male victims too, by the way.

How many are acceptable in your eyes barley? 1, 3, 5, 10, 46, 100? How many are acceptable to be retraumatised by having to refer to their attackers as women and using female pronouns rather than being able to state the truth? That their attackers were male?

And yes, then putting males in a female prison IS a safeguarding issue. You really don't understand safeguarding do you?

[quote barleybadminton]There's a shocking story here about rape being used as an initiation into gangs and how some women, including a girl of 13, have been pressurised into becoming accomplices in that. It's the Daily Mail on gangs so I'd take it with a bit of a pinch of salt but it may explain some of the figures. The girl interviewed in this piece was convicted of rape at the age of 13: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4105224/Inside-shocking-secretive-world-gang-girls-one-woman-s-initiation-included-kidnap-rape-FRIEND.html[/quote]
the figures? what of 46 transitioned males in prison at the moment for rape or attempted rape?

Why are you ignoring that we have statistics for how many rapists and sex offenders in prison currently are transitioned males?

The vast majority of respondents who had experienced rape or assault by penetration since they were 16 reported that the offender(s) were male (99%), with 65% of victims reporting that the offender was a male aged between 20 and 39 (Appendix Table 13).

The majority of victims reported being assaulted by a single offender (70%), with 20% assaulted by two offenders, 5% by three offenders, and 4% by more than three offenders (Appendix Table 18). ,

For those who argue that women are just as bad. The numbers don't support your argument

@334bu

The vast majority of respondents who had experienced rape or assault by penetration since they were 16 reported that the offender(s) were male (99%), with 65% of victims reporting that the offender was a male aged between 20 and 39 (Appendix Table 13).

The majority of victims reported being assaulted by a single offender (70%), with 20% assaulted by two offenders, 5% by three offenders, and 4% by more than three offenders (Appendix Table 18). ,

For those who argue that women are just as bad. The numbers don't support your argument

I didn't argue that women are just as bad, thats quite clearly not the case. I pointed out that given the very low prevalence of trans women being convicted of rape and the fact that there are cases of women being convicted of rape then that's likely to account for the figures we see.

I pointed out that given the very low prevalence of trans women being convicted of rape and the fact that there are cases of women being convicted of rape then that's likely to account for the figures we see

And we are saying 'so what'?

You are saying that just one woman having to be traumatised is ok with you? You are absolutely fine with any woman in Scotland being further harmed by this.

That is what you constant twisting and deflecting is indicating to everyone who is reading this.

Plus you are very happy to abandon safeguarding to allow those males into the female prison estate.

Just like you are perfectly happy for someone who splashes their sexually provocative posts over social media and positions images of a line of small girls behind their profile shot that depicts them naked from the breast line up in the bath, and poses with guns in a non-safe way as being a GG leader, thereby rejecting sound safeguarding principles.

Are cross thread attacks like this a thing here, its very distracting

I pointed out that given the very low prevalence of trans women being convicted of rape and the fact that there are cases of women being convicted of rape then that's likely to account for the figures we see.

436 " women" charged with rape. Total female population in prisons in England and Wales just over 3000. 99% of people raped say they were raped by a male person.
Something doesn't tcompute.

I didn't argue that women are just as bad, thats quite clearly not the case. I pointed out that given the very low prevalence of trans women being convicted of rape

One in two transwomen in the prison population with history / conviction of rape / sex offences, compared to around one in five in the rest of the male prison estate.

and the fact that there are cases of women being convicted of rape then that's likely to account for the figures we see.

Women can't be convicted of rape. Because rape requires a penis. So if you see that a woman has been convicted of rape it will mean one of two things:

1. an error in the reporting
2. the 'woman' is actually a biological male.

I think the base question is.

Do male sex offenders belong in women's prisons?

Yes or no?

I'm going to go with..

NO.

Obviously. It's a ridiculous idea. Anyone that argues for males in women's prisons is either hard of thinking, or they want to destroy women's safeguards.

Neither is a good look.

Isn’t @barleybadminton just saying that trans women are now being included in the crime statistics of women?
So the inflated number of women being convicted of rape is because trans women are included in those numbers?

So the inflated number of women being convicted of rape is because trans women are included in those numbers

Yes.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Isn’t *@barleybadminton* just saying that trans women are now being included in the crime statistics of women? So the inflated number of women being convicted of rape is because trans women are included in those numbers?

No, its very unlikely to be. As the Scottish police have just confirmed, no trans woman has ever been accused of rape in Scotland. It is very very rare. As such those convictions likely refer to joint enterprise cases, such as the one I posted earlier in which a 13 year old girl was convicted of rape.

Just leaving these here in the interests of accuracy:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

[quote MrsOvertonsWindow]Just leaving these here in the interests of accuracy:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life[/quote]
Indeed there have been a handful of cases in the last decade which were widely reported, but only a handful, its very rare, not 483.

Distracting barley?

What? Like your deflection and misinformation or at least your very cherry picked information that actually proves not what you think.

And the fact that you do seem to be quite intent on ignoring the pattern already set and in place for something that the Scottish police probably cannot even substantiate. After all, have they been actually recording rapes by sex or has it been hidden.

The MOJ has admitted that they have NO idea how many transitioned males they have in female prison because of recording.

Why should anyone trust the Scottish Police?

So again, still denying that safeguarding is an issue here barley?
How many females are you going to accept before you agree that it is an issue that females should not be retraumatised by having to refer to their attackers as women and use female pronouns?

No answer? still?

I'd say that like on other threads barley you will always prioritise transitioned males over females. Would that be another correct assumption?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-sex-offenders-are-moved-into-womens-jails-wmfb9k5n0

This Mumsnet thread has some chilling information about male crimes being recorded as women's crimes. 70 cases I believe:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3896235-These-Are-Not-Our-Crimes

It is a fucking large % increase for females to be starting to commit rapes.

There hasnt been a large increase, there was a slight bump in the figures for 2017/18 and I think that's the most recent figure available but they go

2011/12 60
2012/13 51
2013/14 53
2014/15 60
2015/16 65
2016/17 64
2017/18 81

So no huge leap, and I'm pretty sure in the earlier years police would not have recorded trans women accused of rape as women unless they had a GRC which is a tiny number of people.

Oh, I was giving @barleybadminton the benefit of doubt.
My mistake!

“Twelve trans prisoners convicted of violence or sexual crimes have been accommodated in Scottish women’s jails within the past 18 months, according to figures released under Freedom of Information laws.”

@barleybadminton

Ok MNHQ. I will rephrase that.

Is there any suggestions barley on how to disaggregate males out of the numbers. I had the increase over the past 7 or so years for another thread but on my phone and I cannot fine it. The incremental increase over the last few years recorded (I had up to 2018) was considerably out of touch for the previously long history. So, either there is something seriously causing more females to commit crimes considered as rape ? If so, that is a significant issue and needs to be addressed.

Or

It is not females committing the rapid increased incremental statistics. The stats coincide with changes in reporting by gender not sex.

So, any suggestions on how to disaggregated the numbers other than the people doing it by hand every year by looking at prison records?