Your original extract including my edits
scratchedbymycat
support to rape victims and heard a woman who was raped claim, in a group session, that the fact she was white and her attacker was black was particularly difficult for her.
This may well be true for her - as a racist - but for others its not something that would ordinarily be seen as additionally harming. The same could be said of gender identity.
Then your post including extracts by Zerogravity in response to mine:
scratchedbymycat
Remember - my intentions with this post was to sort out my ideas and find a way through a morass of issues and responses so I can talk to people in a way they can HEAR why this is an issue.
You first need to understand your own bias. Falling to accept that you have a bias makes your own arguments weak and prevents you seeing where both you and the other party share a common bias.
Why the shouting?
So, my response was to this:
"Exactly. It is already traumatic to be a victim of rape. Having to refer to your male attacker as a woman is awful."
That was @Zerogravity original post.
The moment I saw those words, I remembered Mridhal Whadi's comment about people needing to be re-educated.
People or women needing services?
However ... when I heard Whadi's comments the first time, I instantly remembered this experience I had, and the post (in bold above) brought it all back again.
(Post is now underlined )
(@CheeseMmmm - I wasn't the facilitator; and it happened over thirty years ago; and in a different country).
Did both black and white women have the same rights and protection under the laws of this country?
If reported would investigation and the prosecution be similar or was there a racial element which would skew the outcome for both or either women?
The woman making this statement WAS racist. No question about it.
Why did you shout the "was"? You are about to offer evidence, let the reader read and judge for themselves.
She shared this in a group which included black women who had been raped, who reacted very very badly to it.
"This" being the fact she was raped, white and her attacker was black was particularly difficult for her.
See how the emphasis without "also" or "too" begins to exclude her from the group?
The reaction went something along the lines of
That's not a "reaction" which is emotion based, its a "she was asked"
'Are you saying your rape was worse because you're white?'
I rather suspect that was not the question. Or at least I would hope not, as it's a closed question.
Her response was,
See how you have modified your word usage here from "claimed"?
'Yes. Black woman are used to these sort of experiences from black men, therefore it's more shocking for white women.' Also comments about how more rapists are black etc.
Was any of that factual?
Was there actual cultural reason why a black woman might be more at risk within her own community than a white woman would be within hers?
Did the risk change moving from one community to the other?
Was a black/white woman's ability to seek justice compromised by her skin colour.
What did the groups on data show how did that compare to any national data?
It caused incredible distress.
Her feelings or her disclosing her feeling?
The facilitator, who was black, did not feel able to continue working with her.
That single exchange resulted in the trained facilitator withdrawing from the service?
Other black members of the charity threatened to walk out if black women who had been raped were expected to confront this in group situations.
What language should I be pointing out here???
Now - Transpose Whadi's view, which presumably be that this woman needed to be re-educated in racism. (At least, that's what I thought when I heard whadi say that).
The word "in" changes the meaning of that sentence.
But ignoring that.
Whats the Parables take away?
That a Black woman is the same a Black man?
Or "Black rapist same as White rapist" as the feeling of women being raped don't count?
Or there is an acceptable hierarchy of feelings?
Or something else?
That's not what we did though. And trust me, the context we were working in regards race was far more explosive than the current TWAW context.
Cultural context? Have it been established that rapists are bad? All racism is worse that all transphobia?
And that she sought sanctuary in group.
It was tough. Massive talks in-house, where we all agreed that our primary job was to provide a service to women in a moment of CRISIS irrespective of their views. And that crisis was rape. So we focussed on that.
Now I am listening and smiling, politely.
We agreed, even if it made us uncomfortable, that, to this woman, the fact that she had been raped by a black man WAS an additional trauma to her.
Shouting again.
But her expression if that was an additional trauma to black women. Group work wasn't working for her or other women in the group, so she had face to face support from another white charity worker.
Here is me interjecting "thats nice, but its a shame there was no State funding provided"
I don't know if we got it right. I feel though, to take her to one side and say 'Listen, you can't share things like that' - if that was her truth - would not have helped her get over a point of immediate raw crisis. There's a time and a place, and that was neither the time nor the place.
Thirty years of lived experience and you still are bothered about it.
So, back to this thread ...
Awkward transiting?
Knowing that some people I might speak to would hear these words
"Exactly. It is already traumatic to be a victim of rape. Having to refer to your male attacker as a woman is awful".
as transphobic would mean they might instantly stop listening.
Ok hierarchy ....
They would prioritise the rapist above the one who was attacked.
Will this apply to children too?
Should a 12 year old boy be asked describe his mother's girlfriend and her penis in Court?
I have resolved to not address the question of whether it is or isn't transphobic when talking to friends, but focus on the issues of crisis and need, and share this experience as an example.
?? I feel though, to take her to one side and say 'Listen, you can't share things like that'??
My view is that 're-educating' women who have been raped, almost as a condition of whether they get support or not, is not right.
Why the equivocation in language?
In fact, if I remember my own experience of trauma, if someone had instead tried to 'fix' something else, I think I'd have felt that was barbaric and even more isolating and made things a whole lot worse.
Another equivocation?
Racism is separate and distinct from the rape and transphobia is separate and distinct from the rape? Interesting choice for a closer.
Know your own bias and when you share another's bias too.