Rapes committed by women - JKR got me thinking

[scratchedbymycat]

JKR just tweeted again. I agree wholeheartedly with her views, but some of the responses have got me thinking.

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

(I promise I'm not trolling here. In fact, I'm hoping for some startlingly clear objective responses to fuel my arguments.)

For me, I find it downright hateful, after all the violence and hate directed towards women by men, that stats will now say 'women are doing it to women'. That makes me so damn angry. But is feeling offended by this, on principle, enough?

On crime stats and recording... Seth Abramson (I know) on Twitter commented that the fact the perpetrator has a penis will come up in the court case. So the court will know they are not biologically female.

Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender? (The only group who identify as women but are also bepenised).

How does a biological women rape another? Because I've seen claims on Twitter that some biological women have been found guilty of rape. Is this a lie?

I'm trying to tease my thoughts out. Only just starting to comment about the gender identity consequences for women to friends etc, and just want to be super clear when I say anything, and not to slip into emotional anger (which happens a lot for me).

Correcting a copy paste error

The remand of BK and place of incarceration is publicly and permanently recorded in the official Dail record.

BK has not (as far as I am aware) been before the Court as a adult, and convicted of any crime.
Therefore BK was only remanded to Limerick Womens Prison.

The recent posts that came due to barley post I think are a bit crossed wires.

The Scot article linked.

The police person said none reported rape in one force in Scotland.
Clearly that is not the same as the none in Scotland which is being discussed.
How could he even know? It's not been recorded for ages. Trying to find how long but eg

Times June 21. Foi from then-
*This has not just started it's been happening for some time.

' In a freedom of information reply, Police Scotland had described its recording policy as follows: “If the male who self-identifies as a woman were to attempt to or to penetrate the vagina, anus or mouth of a victim with their penis, Police Scotland would record this as attempted rape or rape and the male who self-identifies as a woman would be expected to be recorded as a female on relevant police systems.”'

So how could this bloke so confidently say none when he has no data? Or at least no data from... Back before this changed which I don't know.

And if Scotland police are like England/Wales. They will have no records of when it changed from sex to gender (which is extremely peculiar and worrying).

And the CPS is mentioned and other stats with 60 something and just to be sure all posters know that's England/ Wales, not Scotland.

In Ireland gender change is online form. That's it.

So in Ireland having that documentation doesn't mean anything at all about the person.

@CheeseMmmm thanks for the update

I have asked MNHQ to remove my post due to the factual error and once it's removed I will repost the only the Irish elements.

Incidentally one of the vv high risk prisoners in prison in Scotland is a transwoman.

** Articles contain misgendering, I know that may be difficult for some posters.
I do believe it's worth reading anyway due to the relevance due to the thread.
The individual's own reaction to being misgendered in court is in the first article, they are v clear on their gender identity.
I am not sure what the situation will be for this person with the new law.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/court-put-lockdown-dangerous-dirty-11081394

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/violent-prisoner-who-attacked-jail-10235444

The BK case is mind-blowing.

The whole thing from beginning to end.

There are plenty threads but quick run-through. All links etc on other threads and a lot of them. Just search Kardashian or bk on MN women's rights filter (otherwise obv lots KK will come up!
So much but this is a start, things I think give the idea, there is much more though.

I'm googling a bit to check some details and some memory.

1. BK totally utterly horiffic childhood. In care from 10 due to extremely violent attack on mum.

1. Various incidents against female staff in care, one usually highlighted is passenger in car with social worker. No warning leant over ripped eyelids and pulled out chunks of hair.

Children's ?services etc knew definite huge obvious risk to women/ girls.

1. Got to 18 iirc. So end of care and being I suppose monitored, no eye on.

1. This is where it gets weird. The concern to public so great but what to do? The (local?) police took unusual step of issuing a warning that v dangerous teenage girl about.

I seem to remember they put a photo they took it off or similar.

1. This warning was obv peculiar and very vague. Naturally internet those who saw warning were ??? assume police were asked what anyone was supposed to take from little they said.

Internet digging, sharing, etc and hit here not long after. Obv lots of questions. What danger? Escaped prison? Teenage girl? Etc.

1. Mum had been warned coming out so had moved far away and v quietly due to authorities saying you need to run.

1. Then started charged still 18 making threats to kill/ seriously harm two women.

1. Big interest internet media and lots of gender/sex interest re prison etc. BK had said to authorise was desperate to go women's prison.

1. Psychiatric reports etc. I read original of one. Terrifying. Psychiatrist obv totally omg. Kept saying, never seen anyone like this, incredibly dangerous terrifying. Massive danger to women/girls who WILL offend.

Said total sociopath. Xero empathy zero remorse. Only showed emotion when talking about crimes committed, what want to do. Excitement, pleasure. Really enjoyed talking about, showed relish. Totally driven by desire to enact extreme violence on women/girls. To rape. Only thing interested in. Zero doubt that would do that as much as possible.

On remand Limerick women's prison.
It's been ages why no court?
They don't know wtf to do?

Massive points to follow. Sorry about my long posts. This is only a flavour of BK.

1. Must be one of the two trans prisoners there (other is sex offender).

Recent ish Scotland prison report said inhumane to keep the two in isolation. Steps need to be taken to give more standard prison life. Vv sympathetic to their plight. V strong recommendation.

1. This was on the net for a while with lots links commentary. Background, original psych report etc.

Then... BOOM. Pretty much all vanished. Google returned essentially nothing. Where it all go?

Turns out the govt dept that looks after child welfare wrote to all sites hosting BK stuff down.
Threat of legal action if not.

All. Including anything about over 18 IE not a child not to do with them. Reporting on the arrest, court, remand. Whole lot.

They didn't just ask Google to not show. They must have taken the time to search for results, found details, sent letters. About an individual who 18, even news sites with the arrest charge court remand, all gone. Things that are a fundamental right public to know.

That is next level conspiracy theory level stuff. I still can't get my head round it.

Plenty back but not all. Something must have happened.

*The govt of Ireland, or some part of it.
Used resources (public money), to suppress information about an extremely dangerous individual. What the charge was, what charged with, what happened in court, where remanded.

Why?

And issues related to criminal justice - examples in USA and Canada as well.

SORRY

Oh shit essays!
Skip the long posts if no inserted in Ireland/ BK.

The details listed in the committal court case were horrible. I dont have the link anymore but it's searchable as a Court record.

Incident 2 or similar resulted in criminal charges so was transferred to the Children's closed prison service.
When due for release / at 18+ there was a committal court case which would have resulted in indefinite detention in a closed MH unit.
BK won the case
Subsequent to the court case matters were referred to the police.

In Ireland if you are arrested, charged and held for trial you have a constitutional right to be brought to Court asap to seek bail. The Court can't impose an unrealistic bail amount to keep you locked up until trial. I think only being a flight risk or a risk witness intimidation would result in being held before trial. I think you should have an address and the Judge may order you turn up at a police station everyday so you don't get a headstart to where ever have no extraction treaty but you are let out.
Was released pending trial.

From conviction reports in the media the average time between arrest and GBH/murder trials appears to be about 1.5 to 2 years. Covid may add additional time delays too.

The police issued an internal memo, which was leaked to the public, as they were worried about passed history. Not sure of the timing on the memo.
The police keep a number of "people of interest" who's details e.g. locations passports are monitored and the details are passed to NI and other UK police forces plus Interpol. One file was an open case re the murder of a policeman, others are drug related, and a few suspects (Irish & UK) linked to disappearance of women in Ireland Wales and Scotland.

The history about BK's childhood would be under a Children's act which gives a child in court cases a right of privacy, so suppression of pre-18 reports using BK's name would be lawful. Could be a court order in place for the before the trial to prevent the jury pool being tainted which is reasonable and/or GDPR right to be forgotten may apply.

Google and Facebook execs were in and out of Court over SM reports naming child A and child B and someone was convicted recently over that and I think there may be other cases pending. SM execs don't want to do jail time for contempt of court either.

Interesting thank you.

The background history is back on Google now.
And the news outlets that had only reported the arrest and charge, or the court appearance and decision went.

Due to the situation plenty here and Ireland were following the case due to the level of risk and concern about women's prison.

I'm sure there were news pieces just covering that. It ALL went. Googling BK was jaw dropping as... All gone.

Using very specific search terms there were a handful.

I haven't seen a pic of the original warning when left care (so 18) for ages and ages. Way back. And that's what started it all off.

The local papers had nothing when charged went to court. At the time if you looked at Irish news outlets including ones who had reported on BK before. Nothing. All gone. Nothing about just over 18.

Given that-

Over 18 stuff all went
That loads is back including childhood

I can't see that was the reason.

For ages when I searched there was nothing about when went to court and went remand. Zilch

I did Google the Irish site for court cases I think. A while back. Wasn't there.
I'm not familiar with what they hold though.

'Today, October 12th, Gript Media was the latest outlet to receive a threatening letter from Tusla, the child and family agency, demanding that we remove all coverage of Ms. Kardashian’s story, on the grounds that publication of the story breaches an order of the high court issued in July 2020.'

The actual letter I can't find anyway.

I'm not a legal bod. Does that make sense to this?

@SolasAnla

Correcting a copy paste error

The remand of BK and place of incarceration is publicly and permanently recorded in the official Dail record.

BK has not (as far as I am aware) been before the Court as a adult, and convicted of any crime.
Therefore BK was only remanded to Limerick Womens Prison.

Stella OMalley did this thread in 2020

twitter.com/stellaomalley3/status/1309788076059832320?s=21

Which, by the way, has a large number of useful articles illustrating JKR's point.

Repost of prior comment which I had requested MNHQ to withdraw due to copy and paste error and removed top section due to other posters contributions about the Scottish justice system

barleybadminton
This mirrors the siruation in Ireland - the reason they got in such a mess over Barbie Kardashian is that according to officials Ireland had never had a prisoner who identified as a trans woman before

In Ireland (post 2015 GRA Act) without producing a GRC in Court all transwomen get sent to the Men's Prison system. In Ireland unlike the UK it's not lawful to detain a male in the Women's Prison. (There is legislation if anyone wants to Google)

Ireland has 174 women's prison places, Dublin's capacity is146 (including a mother and baby unit) and Limerick capacity 28.

The first male (Transwoman) to serve time in the Irish Womens Prison system is male sex offender convicted 2019.
10 charges of child sex abuse.
1 charge of child abuse.

The offending was pre 2015 the child was reported as 4 years old at the time of the offence. A GRC was submitted in Court pre sentencing and originally sent to Dublin then transferred to Limerick Women's Prison.

Currently appealing the conviction.

The conviction and place of incarceration is publicly and permanently recorded in the official Dail record.

BK was serving time in the Children's system in or around 2019 for attacking a woman. Managed by an all man team due to the risk to women on staff. Post release went to Court and proved it's possible to want to rape and murder one's mother and still be legally sane. Tavi. (Uk) specialist doc's medical opinion was no gender dystopia.

Produced a GRA in Court when arrested for 2 separate offences against people. Is currently on bail (per constitutional right) pending trial, after release from Limerick Women's Prison. If convicted will be remanded to the Women's Prison system.

The remand and place of incarceration is publicly and permanently recorded in the official Dail record.

One was on record objecting to a male officer being present when searched. Searches are carried out by officers of the same sex for safeguarding of prisoners. Both were segregated, so in a single cell.

Current year 2021

There is the TW with a GRC who had requested not sent to the Womens Prison, after a drunk fight outside a bar. Being a TW was used to mitigate the offence. 1 year apparently serving it in Limerick Women's Prison.

So in Ireland that's 3 out of the approx. 350 males with GRC who have been remanded to the Irish Women's Prison.

Those who do not produce a GRC are lawfully sent to the Men's Prison.

Like the TW in the Midlands Men's Prison (no GRC produced in Court). Convicted possession, production and distribution of child sex abuse images. Many children had not previously been recorded in the international databases of sexual abused children.

So who are the "officials" who were lying or so ill informed as to what was happening in Ireland?

@CheeseMmmm

Everybody has a right to a fair trial. So they have a right to a jury of peers who don't have preconceived ideas as to the what's being tried.

If called up for jury duty on a case you would be excused if you disclose that you have prior knowledge which would pre-emptively result in a guilty or not guilty vote, as that would been seen as stacking the scales.

So it's innocent until proven guilty by the quality of the evidence presented in court.
(IMO this is one of the reasons why rape convictions are so low. It's a living witness and a living defendant. For most people the crime is on par with murder but without the definitive proof that the crime happened, so jury's are slower to reach a guilty verdict.)

If the charges were linked to the committal court case having the media point to this risks ending up with a jury member who has knowledge not presented in court. Or that one would look for the information during the trial.

I think a woman was jailed earlier this year (Manchester/ Birmingham??) after a trial collapsed when she told other jurors about stuff which was not included in the original trial.

Along with a right to a fair trial there is also an emotional cost to the witnesses who give evidence for the prosecution for serious injury /rape /murder trials, the survivors want the system to work.
For the State, trials and appeals are costly, prisons are costly but they serve the "common good" as it's an orderly way to get justice.

Tusla, the Children's agency would be involved up to 18 with children placed in care. I am not sure if they are charged with looking after adults in care. They would be working within the legal remit to request the removal of information on a child in their care. That section of the Children's Act gave the child life long protection.
(It went so far as to prevent the parents of a child who was murdered name their own child in the media and even for they themselves to be named as it identified their child, the sections were subsequenty amended for victims.)

As a child in care BK would have had to get Guardian permission if the GRC was issued before reaching 18. If that happened there would be a vested interest within Tusla not to have the case actively feature in news cycles. Plus would the Minister who issued the GRC have done so if the applicants history was submitted along side the application form.
If the application happened when BK was an adult, Tusla would (should) not have been involved.

Both that history and the history re sexual abuse of a child pre-date their GRC's and could be sufficient reason for any current Minister to remove the GRC's. However it's unlikely to happen as the current Government's policy plans is to extent the GRA to all minor children.

If women are rapists, that would be the argument used to allow transwomen in EVERY sex specific space ... "Women are rapists too, what's the big deal"

This is an interesting listen from Rhona Hotchkiss on males in female prison.

.' Is currently on bail (per constitutional right) pending trial, after release from Limerick Women's Prison. If convicted will be remanded to the Women's Prison system.'

This says BK is out on bail? So dunno about bail conditions generally, but definitely not being held anywhere pending trial?

I did not know that.

Threads a few months ago on this, all thought/ assumed in Limerick till trial.

I'll Google but can you confirm please?

Ok woah

'www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/teenager-in-custody-charged-with-threats-to-kill-two-people-39563823.html'

'Prosecuting Sergeant John Moloney said gardaí would be making "strenuous objections" if she applied for bail.'

Then defence said want bail.

Defence showed grc said various reasons be women's prison if remanded.

Judge said I'm not saying male/ female prison matter for prison authorities.

Then remanded custody til 29 sept when public prosecutions chat or something.

Right yes so in Limerick then.

So assumed still there.

Apparently not.

Having trouble finding in Google what happened on or after 29 sept.

So the two TW we know are in Limerick separated from others, as that's in an official report. Not named but says two.

One is the child sex offender and the other the drunk person, not BK.

I am not sure of the relevance of the CSA images point so how that relates would need bit more explanation, sorry.

If it's me about officials, I said how can say no reports of rape by TW in his force when they haven't been recording by sex, just get ID for at least months. But months ago is only after realised and there was a FOI about it.

Can't find when that actually came in.

So how can police person say no reports in his force? Not got data since whenever started recording self ID not sex.

The post just now is Scotland nothing to with Ireland, different part of thread.

I haven't seen anything about removing GRC I really don't see that happening and the online stuff chats on here etc have been totally focused on the risk presented to public, the very peculiar events along the way, concern about women's prison re risk management including for female prison officers and staff.

Through the whole thing the massive concern, the behaviour, the actions of BK have been pressed by those who came into contact professionally. As meaning the risk presented is off the scale.