Rapes committed by women - JKR got me thinking

[scratchedbymycat]

JKR just tweeted again. I agree wholeheartedly with her views, but some of the responses have got me thinking.

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

(I promise I'm not trolling here. In fact, I'm hoping for some startlingly clear objective responses to fuel my arguments.)

For me, I find it downright hateful, after all the violence and hate directed towards women by men, that stats will now say 'women are doing it to women'. That makes me so damn angry. But is feeling offended by this, on principle, enough?

On crime stats and recording... Seth Abramson (I know) on Twitter commented that the fact the perpetrator has a penis will come up in the court case. So the court will know they are not biologically female.

Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender? (The only group who identify as women but are also bepenised).

How does a biological women rape another? Because I've seen claims on Twitter that some biological women have been found guilty of rape. Is this a lie?

I'm trying to tease my thoughts out. Only just starting to comment about the gender identity consequences for women to friends etc, and just want to be super clear when I say anything, and not to slip into emotional anger (which happens a lot for me).

An increase of 20 convictions when sitting steady for all that time is not large compared to the solid trend? You are having a laugh?

I doubt they recorded transitioned males as women prior to the increase. Please provide proof (and not from dodgy studies).

Either way, we already know how many are in prison right now barley although you are yet to acknowledge those figures.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

“Twelve trans prisoners convicted of violence or sexual crimes have been accommodated in Scottish women’s jails within the past 18 months, according to figures released under Freedom of Information laws.”

@barleybadminton

It would be interesting to know when these were convicted.

Oh, and another but that was deleted was that the MOJ stated in evidence that they kept no records on how many transitioned males were in the female prison because they didn’t record it.

So again, how do we desegregate these numbers?

It puts any figures you put forward questionable. We know the prison statistics because people have gone through and pulled them out. And presented them to government and they have not been disproved at all.

In 2011, there were 10,832 male prisoners in custody for sexual offences, a rise of 4
per cent since 2010. There were 103 female prisoners in custody for sexual offences,
a fall of 15 per cent since 2010.
Although there has been a general upward trend in the number of female prisoners in
custody for sexual offences, it remains very low and is a very small proportion of the
overall female prison population (2 per cent). For both the remand and the
immediate custodial sentenced populations of prisoners in custody for sexual
offences, the vast majority have an offence type of other sexual offences.

2011/12 60?? 1,260? Rapes by women? Doesn't correspond with figures for 2011.

As a victim of SA several times over and also a victim of absolute shoddy police work that basically ended up failing me through pure misogyny by the (male) police officers and unfortunately them also allowing the people who assaulted me to go on to raping another woman in a public space, I feel safer in the knowledge that the statistics back up my thinking that most rape victims are victims of male violence, why? Because I head towards female only spaces, I feel safer letting my dc go to a female only club, I acknowledge there is a very small chance I may be wrong however that chance is small and backed up by statistics to show me that. It makes me feel much more secure even though tbh it's what I believe is the truth anyway, that men commit more sexual violence far more than women do.

I really wish all this about men magically becoming a woman overnight because they declare it would stop, happy to have a third space or unisex places everywhere, extremely unhappy to have my safe places taken away from me.

kiwijuice

@334bu

**In 2011, there were 10,832 male prisoners in custody for sexual offences, a rise of 4 per cent since 2010. There were 103 female prisoners in custody for sexual offences, a fall of 15 per cent since 2010. Although there has been a general upward trend in the number of female prisoners in custody for sexual offences, it remains very low and is a very small proportion of the overall female prison population (2 per cent). For both the remand and the immediate custodial sentenced populations of prisoners in custody for sexual offences, the vast majority have an offence type of other sexual offences.**

2011/12 60?? 1,260? Rapes by women? Doesn't correspond with figures for 2011.

sorry no the figure is 60 rapes in the 2011/12 period, I think the figure run april to april.

Either way, we already know how many are in prison right now barley although you are yet to acknowledge those figures

If it wasn’t such a serious subject this would be funny

So more than half of all the female sex offenders in custody in 2011 were convicted of rape with a penis??

Given that Scottish police have never dealt with someone accused of rape who identified as a woman it seem likely this is something that is very rare and that seems to be reflected in the lack of reports of this happening. National newspapers like The Daily Mail have networks of court reporters monitoring cases all over the country, I find it very hard to believe that journalists are contacting the tabloids saying hey I'm covering a rape case involving a trans women here and the Mail is saying y'know, that's not really the kind of thing we'd be interested in.

1. The police record criminals according to self ID'd 'gender', not sex.
2. Journalists use pronouns according to gender self ID.
3. The MoD don't keep records on 'trans' prisoners.

Police recording arrests by self ID:

www.understanding-inequalities.ac.uk/news-and-blog/data-matters-recording-sex-and-gender-identity-in-the-criminal-justice-system

We have had journalists on here before note how they are not allowed, by IPSO, to record a transwoman by anything other than preferred pronouns.

fairplayforwomen.com/ipso/
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4104200-Examining-trends-in-editorial-standards-in-coverage-of-transgender-issues
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4125536-another-news-report-calling-a-criminal-a-woman?pg=2

The MoD confirmed their recording methods in the recent Judicial Review. This was brought by a woman who'd been sexually assaulted in prison by a male prisoner who identified as a transwoman.

'kpssinfo.org/stories-from-women-in-prison/'
kpssinfo.org/how-are-male-prisoners-who-identify-as-transgender-recorded-in-the-data/

So how, exactly, would anybody know about a transwoman having been accused of rape? Police record it as a 'female' arrest, journalists report it as a 'female' accused person on trial, prison will record it as a 'female' prisoner.

Yes. Rather rufus.

Like, pretty hard to ignore the fact it has already happened. But it is quite entertaining watching the twisting and deflection.

Its the skipping of entire posts thats really funny

Even i can now spot those posts that will get a comment/response and those that won’t

There’s a definite pattern…if only i could spot it…what could it be 🤔

@334bu

So more than half of all the female sex offenders in custody in 2011 were convicted of rape with a penis??

No, the 60 figures represents people who were charged with rape flagged offences, not convictions or imprisonments, explained by the ONS here:

"The CPS records data in relation to ‘rape flagged’ cases. The data does not constitute official statistics.
The flag is applied to CPS files from the start of the case following an initial allegation of rape. This flag
will remain in place even if the decision is taken to charge an offence other than rape, or where a rape
charge is subsequently amended. "

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

Its the skipping of entire posts thats really funny

Even i can now spot those posts that will get a comment/response and those that won’t

There’s a definite pattern…if only i could spot it…what could it be 🤔

Perhaps the pattern is that I'm discussing the female rape figures which have been discussed on this thread and not really interested in veering off into an agument about trans people in prisons.

No, the 60 figures represents people who were charged with rape flagged offences, not convictions or imprisonments, explained by the ONS here:

However, initial charge still rape with a penis?

Perhaps the pattern is that I'm discussing the female rape figures which have been discussed on this thread and not really interested in veering off into an agument about trans people in prisons

Nah its not that one

Keep with the ideas though…we are deffo gonna crack it

Perhaps the pattern is that I'm discussing the female rape figures which have been discussed on this thread and not really interested in veering off into an agument about trans people in prisons.

And how did the transitioned males convicted of rape get in female prisons?

Talk about cherry picking information.

samphire

No probs it's such an important topic when it comes to protecting our sex, working to keep the single sex spaces and services we need.

And especially for you doing such amazing work.

I know from my own experience that it's easy to read posts as not what they mean to say.

I'm v glad we sorted that out as my post was not as clear as could have been, and what was taken was so contrary to what I meant!

I think you, your colleagues, and everyone working at the sharp end for women and girls are incredible, brave and awesome.

@334bu

*No, the 60 figures represents people who were charged with rape flagged offences, not convictions or imprisonments, explained by the ONS here:*

However, initial charge still rape with a penis?

No, if the initial allegation was rape, but it would remain rape flagged whatever the charge eventually was. So say a woman was raped by a man whilst a woman either assisted or was there and did nothing to prevent it (or was involved in helping to plan it as the women convicted in the Rotherham scandal were). Both the man and the woman's offence would be flagged as rape offences, even if rape charges against the woman were not pursued, or lesser charges were pursued.

14:26barleybadminton

Has this been posted yet, it seems very relevent: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/8158512/police-rape-scotland-trans-id-row/

-

The report is not as clear as could be.

1. That force has had no reports of rape by TW. Not the whole of Scotland. Not sure timescale but wording implies ever. I think you misunderstood, easily done as the article was not at all clear.

1. Police Scotland have been recording on self id for ages. Gender not sex.

There is therefore no way of seeing from records trans status if there is one. * NOTE. this also means trans victims are not recorded in records. This is a dataset that would help understand types of crime, locations, victim ages, whether different pattern between male and female victims with trans IDs. The trans orgs etc are absolutely clear that only gender, never sex, never both should be recorded. That is an inexplicable position for them to take, a position that insists useful data just not exist.

Tbc sorry

It's explained here: www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/publications/cps-vawg-report-2019.pdf

The CPS
records ‘rape flagged’ cases, which means it includes cases which followed an allegation of rape, but
which may have resulted in another offence, such as sexual assault, being charged and/or convicted.
The rape ‘flag’ remains in place to make sure that the case is managed in line with the principles set
out in our rape and sexual offence policy. CPS ‘rape flagged’ data therefore shows a much larger
number of prosecutions and convictions than the MoJ data for rape prosecutions and convictions.

So given that 99% of all rapes are according to the victims are perpetrated by male people . Of the 60 initial rape charges we can assume that less than 1 would be a female accomplice and all the rest would be people with penises?

1. As not recorded. How does he know? To have an idea would mean looking through the case notes for each rape and looking for pointers.

So it's something they are tracking unofficially (v unlikely given resource pressures, policy and his stance). He's asked around a bit. He's going on anything he may have heard. Or he's just said that based on I dunno. Instinct or something.

1. Note he says 'We don’t require evidence or certification as proof of biological sex or gender identity other than a person’s self-declaration'.

The idea that unless 'docs seen', the police etc won't know if a person is trans, and given focus here is male trans people (transmen generally 'pass' better for a number of reasons), plus the fact that presentation has nothing to do with internal ID (no need to change appearance in any way).

Plus the little fact that if sex offence involves penis, and this is rape we're talking about. Penetration with a penis. Then the fact a penis is attached to the person, and they have used it to violate, to fuck another person against their will. Would document really be required to know sex? Come on.

Plus of course that most don't hold grcs.

So he's using well known arguments from trans and activists. NO thought for anything, just parroting a line.

That comment of his is coming from ONE aim wanting one conclusion.

He is in no way neutral***

@334bu

So given that 99% of all rapes are according to the victims are perpetrated by male people . Of the 60 initial rape charges we can assume that less than 1 would be a female accomplice and all the rest would be people with penises?

err no, I don't see how you get that. The rape flagged cases were all females, the numer of male rape flagged cases runs to thousands.