Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

Is the solution to have mixed sex everything? Because I can’t understand why people
Would be against mixed sex but pro self-identified transwomen.

Mixed sex changing rooms have been shown to have an increase in sex crimes. From voyeurism and cameras to worse. But either way, the reports on mixed sex facilities are not safe for females.

I remember on the 70s when unisex was a thing. It wasn’t popular because - well, the bleeding obvious.

I guess what I am saying is those shops that allow self identifying transwomen into changing rooms should just say they are mixed sex.

I suppose the point for some people (whatever the motive) is to be able to use the single sex facilities.

StopSnowing.

And that is just one of many things that... Raise questions.

Changing rooms.
Usually.

Signs not changed.

No publicity. No announcement, eg X shop are proud to announce trans inclusive policy! Usually when do things that are exciting, important. Message about brand. Sponsoring something at pride! All shops accessible, we care about all our customers and worked to make fab for those with disabilities!
That's weird isn't it.

Management do policy. Shop floor often don't know. Left to handle. Training? Policy on changing entrance?
Potential situation women complaining and those they complaining about angry as well.
Could be heated. V heated.
Sat teen has to sort out?

That's shit. Total shit.

Why not done openly?
Why no info outside changing?
Single gender space open to anyone who feels it's the right changing room for them.
Plus... If not comfy using. Tell staff one private changing room? Suggest try on at home?
That sort of thing.

Nope.
Change policy management let certain orgs know maybe otherwise keep quiet.
Don't indicate to customers.
Bung the new policy onto floor staff, leave them to deal with it.
Hope not too many customers affected and if so they react like properly socialised women/girls should.

Done.

Massive policy change. NO hint to customers.

Hmmmmmm.

This is in line with SW law. Under the radar to try and normalise and then say 'yes but we've been doing it for years so you can't backtrack because that wouldn't be very nice' Stealth is the new way of making unwanted, undebated, law.

Well, John Lewis, M & S, and the rest, come out and lets have a truthful debate and see what your big spenders (women) have to say

What's that old saw about it being easier to explain afterwards than get permission first?

It ought not to be allowed to work in this case.

Some of this was put in place decades ago. Single sex wards being the massive example.

Always single gender. Big political promise at time. The govt told the NHS to always say single sex so as not to confuse the public. 90s I think it was.

Wards were all single sex in Reading in the 1950s and 60s when my mother was going into hospital sometimes. Wards were single sex in Bristol during the 1970s and early 80s. I know; I was in and out of Women's Surgical 1 for a while, and it and Women's Surgical 2 were not the same places as Men's Surgical 1 and 2. They were not even on the same floor of the hospital. (Women's were upstairs, inconveniently far from vending machines. Of course they were.)

They were changed to mixed sex in order to save money by closing a lot of wards, and then gosh, that was a dismal bloody failure so they promised to put it back how it had been. Only they couldn't because they'd closed the wards and used them for something else, so they have been fudging it ever since.

And it was always sex, not gender. It went by type of body, not mental condition.

That's not correct.

In the early 90s iirc there was a huge political promise to bring back single sex wards.

It was a big thing in media for a fair while.

Govt bought in tracking and I think penalties for hosps that still had mixed sex wards (where suitable obv not high dependency wards etc).

There are documents with NHS and govt discussing.
On MN somewhere not sure how easy to Google.

NHS saying are you sure you mean single gender not sex.
Govt saying yes. Everyone to refer to single sex though, so as not to confuse the public.

I stayed on a mixed sex ward in Central London in 1994 when I was 18.

About 7 men and me.

It was not a comfortable experience for me at all.

Are you basing your confidence they always single sex on your own experiences with a few hosps?

Yes, they said they would unmix the wards again, but they didn't do it.

(I am trying to imagine a 1950s or 1960s Matron faced with suggestion of mixed-sex wards. I rather tend to pity the person making the suggestion.)

The 90s. Not the 50s.

Is this based on anything other than your own experiences in a couple of hosps?

If so how can you be so sure?

Just looked this was 2010ish.

Not 90s, apologies

You said they promised to "bring back single sex wards". They could not have brought back something which had not been the case before. What I said in no way contradicted your 1990s recollection; it was about what had been the case well before that decade.

If you can find a hospital in the fifties or sixties, or come to that seventies, that had mixed-sex wards for anything other than immediate emergency cases (which would be found a bed in a single-sex ward once they'd been seen) I would be surprised. It would have been noticed by the husbands of women who were forced to share sleeping accommodation with male strangers if nobody else! and complained about, and given as another reason never to go into hospital unless you had to. My parents were both horrified by the very idea when it was brought home to them in their late seventies that this mixed-sex accommodation was what might be done to them if they got seriously ill.

The NHS has for years classified patients by self-declared "gender" in the first instance, the default being "female".

Yes, "F" = "female gender", not "female sex". More stealthy overwriting of "sex" with "gender".

This is explained by Anne Harper-Wright:

Sex, Gender & the NHS Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

Sex, Gender & the NHS Part 2: Your Medical Record and your Ladybrain
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

NHS Policy on “sex = gender” started under the Labour Government in 2008 due to Christine Burns’s influence and continued under the Conservative-Lib Dem Coalition after the May 2010 election.

<a class="break-all" href="https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130123195237/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_089941" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130123195237/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_089941

Eliminating Mixed Sex Accommodation
May 2009

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130104221201/http:/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_098893.pdf

Sex and Current Gender Input and Display
User Interface Design Guidance
Prepared for
NHS Connecting for Health
Thursday, 25 June 2009
Version 4.0.0.0 Baseline
Prepared by
Clinical Application and Patient Safety Project
NHS CUI Programme Team

This document explains clearly why it is important for Patient Safety to always record birth sex. "Current gender" is also recorded.

1.1 Customer Need

This section explains why the guidance has been created.

The NHS categorises a person's gender in two ways:

• Person Gender Current. Or ‘Current Gender’, which refers to a patient's current gender classification.

• Person Gender at Registration. Or ‘Sex’, which refers to the record of a patient's gender classification at the point of birth registration.

Note

For brevity and clarity, this document uses the term Sex in place of Person Gender at Registration and Current Gender in place of Person Gender Current.

NHS applications input and display a patient's current gender or sex in various contexts. Users may confuse the terms current gender and sex, or assume that they are synonymous. Therefore, it is essential that all NHS applications display and explain current gender and sex terminology and values in a clear and consistent manner.

This document details the recommendations for entering and displaying current gender and sex in NHS applications. NHS clinical applications should use the Current Gender and Sex format to
enhance readability, ensure consistency and to cover all possible variants of Current Gender and Sex. This recommendation provides the best display format because it decreases ambiguity
through the clear presentation of data values, and intuitive, concise labelling of patient Current Gender and Sex. Additionally, this recommendation enables NHS clinical applications to display a predefined, restricted set of unknown or unspecified Current Gender and Sex values.

Figure 1 shows examples of how an NHS application might display Current Gender and Sex values.

The aims of this guidance are to:

• Ensure patients are correctly identified and matched with their patient record by displaying data items consistently

• Allow the status of the patient to be entered and displayed in a legally compliant and patient-sensitive manner

Potential consequences of not adhering to these standards include:

1. The patient is given the wrong treatment as a result of a failure to identify the patient correctly.

1. The patient is given the wrong treatment as a result of a failure to match the patient correctly with their artefacts (samples, letters, specimens, X-rays, and so on).

1. The patient is given the wrong treatment as a result of a failure in communication between staff, or staff not performing or checking procedures correctly.

<a class="break-all" href="https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20150107153859/www.isb.nhs.uk/use/baselines/sexdesign.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20150107153859/www.isb.nhs.uk/use/baselines/sexdesign.pdf

Despite this, we now have the dangerous situation where the only "sex" code using in the NHS coding system is for Wards, not patients.

This is due to lobbying from trans advocacy organisations and also explains how the "single sex" wards promised in 2009 were actually "single gender".

The "sex" code for Wards was matched with the "Current Gender" code for patients, not the code for "Person Gender at Registration. Or ‘Sex’, which refers to the record of a patient's gender classification at the point of birth registration".

Asking, I have no idea why you are so intent on proving... Something.

The fact is.

There were mixed sex wards
Govt big publicity promise etc to make single sex
Even though they weren't. They lied to the public.

Not complicated.

You started off iirc by saying always single sex based on you and your mum experiences in .. 2? 3 hosps or similar.

Then asserted that was true everywhere.

I can see that my mixed sex ward age 18 thing didn't merit any reaction. Apart from I am right!

Do you want me to find your posts from earlier?

Why are you so hung up on this? I mean it's your call obv.

'00:12CheeseMmmm

Some of this was put in place decades ago. Single sex wards being the massive example.

Always single gender. Big political promise at time. The govt told the NHS to always say single sex so as not to confuse the public. 90s I think it was.'

'They were changed to mixed sex in order to save money by closing a lot of wards, and then gosh, that was a dismal bloody failure so they promised to put it back how it had been. Only they couldn't because they'd closed the wards and used them for something else, so they have been fudging it ever since.

And it was always sex, not gender. It went by type of body, not mental condition.'

Then looked it up and said the big political promise was 2000s not 90s.

And said sorry got it wrong.

Have you homed in on the word always? And ignored context, date 2000s not 90s etc?

Context is very useful.

To say they had ALWAYS been single gender. You didn't think well the context and the dates etc are relevant?

You think I know what the policy was in whatever they had in Roman times? Or the 1800s?

You didn't think hmmm always is BOLD! Maybe I missed something. Oh look! There's other words! They might be useful.

I mean when the big political promise all over the media was! A few decades ago. 90s 00s I said sorry got decade wrong. And still you decide I literally mean back until the birth of the human race?!!?

Looking again I said 90s I think it was in my first post.

You missed that? It's a really short post!

@Summersnake

Oh well Guess I’m a bigot then

Me too. Are we too polite as women that we really are losing our voice on this one?

@Artichokeleaves

The basic rule has become 'people who are male get to do whatever they like (largely because they kick off at the word 'no' or any hint that they might want to consider their impact on others), and females - can put up or give up the space and leave'.

I think we've destruction tested the idea that male people choosing their own spaces would have no impact on female people or their access, and it would all be a lovely happy paradise of rainbows and unicorns.

As a matter of fact it has proven two things:

1. The UK is quite unbelievably sexist. There has been zero progress on this. Society operates wholly on sex based thinking, and this needs addressing because ffs, the 1950s are not coming back and at this point it's about some male people treating female people as less human, lesser beings, subordinate to them, while knowing full well it's a lousy thing to do and all about bad behaviour and entitlement. Time to do something serious about this as a society.

2. Female people need single sex spaces, because any mixed sex space is dominated by male people, some of whom take what they want and meet their own needs without the faintest interest or regard or respect for female people in that space, or how their actions affect or exclude female people. There will be no good will. There will be no mutually respectful behaviour. There may quite often be loud, aggressive behaviour to get own way if female people try suggesting that they might be a bit more considerate and equality minded. (See fuckton of evidence.) There will be zero conscience or caring about females or their problems. (See 1.) Any shouting about equality will actually translate as 'do what I want' as opposed to any interest in actual equality and others having rights too.

Now we've proven that this doesn't work for female people in society without legal, enforcable boundaries (at this point cue some male people raging that they will come in anyway and no one can stop them which kind of proves all over again why female people need those legal boundaries because nothing else but legal consequences will manage this awful behaviour) those legal boundaries need putting back.

This has, very predictably, just turned into a total shitshow of male supremacism, entitlement and enjoying being allowed to jump up and down on female boundaries. While gleefully explaining that women can't stop them.

I won't be settling for this.

I don't want to settle for it either but what can we do?