Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

@FetchezLaVache

Joining the thread late, but I would genuinely like one of the cool kids to explain to me the following:

If the "frightened transwoman" was trying to access the women's changing rooms because genuinely and legitimately afraid of what might befall them in the men's at the hands of unknown males, why are women not allowed to be afraid of what might befall them in the women's at the hands of unknown males?

There is a pretty standard group of arguments that are commonly used.

They are.

1. TW are more at risk than women and girls. TW are more vulnerable than women/ girls. TW must come first and use all female things because otherwise it's guaranteed that they will be attacked and probably severely. Women and girls just don't face anything like that.

1. TW are not the danger. Cis men are. TW just do not, cannot commit crimes against women/ girls and always take maximum consideration for the comfort and privacy of others.

Anything bad cis men are to blame. They are the common problem. All women should fight together. To exclude the women that are uniquely at risk from cis men, is just bigotry. It shows up that those who want anything single sex don't care about MVAWG at all. It's being used as a way to justify hate.

So far so good! There's more though...

The one that apparently is the argument so complete there's no way to refute it is-

Obviously it's about rape. At a stretch maybe serious sexual assault.
Any other reasons or crimes given why women and girls need single sex spaces is trivial/irrelevant so should be simply ignored.

If a girl or woman is raped by a male in a single sex space (it's always just toilets mentioned).

Then it will by definition be a cis man who did it. Males with trans identities by definition would never do anything like that. ( Fact that any old male can saunter in never addressed).

If a cis man wants to rape a woman or girl then he will. Nothing anyone can do about that. Just fact of life.

The idea that a sign on a door will stop rapists is laughable. Prepared to rape but obey toilet sign? FFS that's so stupid. Who would ever think that! Are they thick or what?
I have seen a thread on OJ twit with all the comments more or less LAUGHING!
Hilarious comments man I'm going to follow her and rape her, oh no a sign! Thwarted.

What does this last one tell you. Well everything anyone needs to know to understand the attitude of a group (seems a fairly large group) of the gender > sex people who comment on this topic on Twitter.

No Twitter isn't real life at all.

But to see a stack of people taking the time to LAUGH at rape. That's not great to see written on a public forum.

Oh and last argument.
If anything happens report it. Can't see any problem at all. Just report. Easy.

I went into some 'for every gender' toilets in a quite empty building. There was a man in there. I felt very unsafe. Not because he attacked me, but because I was in a small isolated space with a man. If I had walked into a women's toilets and seen a man I would have immediately left and I would have been on high alert. Clearly there is a safety issue and you'd have to be a numpty not to see what - it's not the sign on the toilet which protects us, it's the ability to spot that a man is where he should not be and to act early. Quite apart from the other issues of course as we don't make an inclusive society for women just by stopping rape. You'd have to be impressively unaware of the issues in society if your thinking is that simplistic.

No one except young children should be allowed in the opposite changing room. Adults have an expectation they will not encounter an adult of the opposite sex in their room.

@CheeseMmmm

The one that apparently is the argument so complete there's no way to refute it is-

Obviously it's about rape. At a stretch maybe serious sexual assault.
Any other reasons or crimes given why women and girls need single sex spaces is trivial/irrelevant so should be simply ignored.

If a girl or woman is raped by a male in a single sex space (it's always just toilets mentioned).

Then it will by definition be a cis man who did it. Males with trans identities by definition would never do anything like that. ( Fact that any old male can saunter in never addressed).

If a cis man wants to rape a woman or girl then he will. Nothing anyone can do about that. Just fact of life.

The idea that a sign on a door will stop rapists is laughable. Prepared to rape but obey toilet sign? FFS that's so stupid. Who would ever think that! Are they thick or what?
I have seen a thread on OJ twit with all the comments more or less LAUGHING!
Hilarious comments man I'm going to follow her and rape her, oh no a sign! Thwarted.

What does this last one tell you. Well everything anyone needs to know to understand the attitude of a group (seems a fairly large group) of the gender > sex people who comment on this topic on Twitter.

No Twitter isn't real life at all.

But to see a stack of people taking the time to LAUGH at rape. That's not great to see written on a public forum.

Oh and last argument.
If anything happens report it. Can't see any problem at all. Just report. Easy.

Well said. Thank You

Agreed. I really appreciate reading your posts Cheese

Yes cheese your encapsulation of the main arguments that get used to tell women that they should STFU are spot on.

The whole ‘as if a sign is going to stop someone’ completely ignores the issue that women also now have been told that even just leaving the toilet or changing room when someone who they perceive as male enters is considered a micro aggression and therefore needs to be stopped too.

In the past, if a woman felt worried (even seeing a male enter a single sex space from outside the space) they would query, this current agenda means women cannot query, or to report to security etc. Now they are very much less inclined to do that, so who benefits?

And you are also right about reporting as well. Report it? With the current rate of conviction for sexual assault against women, who has any confidence at all in policing.

It blows my mind that so many people use this as an argument for lowering the boundaries we have established over the decades. Just report it? To whom? And what will that mean? It won’t even mean the women and girls coming after you have put yourself through the additional trauma of reporting it will be safer!

All three of those arguments are rolled out in some form. It is predictable.

Horrific to see people joking about it though.

@CheeseMmmm brilliant posts.

If the "frightened transwoman" argument is genuine, then why doesn't the TR movement acknowledge the obvious loophole of allowing all men regardless of sex, presentation etc into women's spaces? Surely the "frightened TW" has as much to fear from said loophole as women and girls? Unless... it's not about TW feeling safer in the women's facilities at all... Hmmm....

It blows my mind that so many people use this as an argument for lowering the boundaries we have established over the decades. Just report it
And of course if you reply with let the transwomen use the mens then and report it if anything happens. Theres a deafening silence. Followed shortly after by beeee kiiiiiiiind.

@Terfydactyl

It blows my mind that so many people use this as an argument for lowering the boundaries we have established over the decades. Just report it And of course if you reply with let the transwomen use the mens then and report it if anything happens. Theres a deafening silence. Followed shortly after by beeee kiiiiiiiind.

(But not to females. You can be as beastly to them as you like and that's fine...)

The double standards are excruciatingly obvious once you see it.

The 'just report it' argument is undeniably great at highlighting that. If that is ok for females to be told as an argument, then absolutely, that is fine for any male to have to continue to use the male facilities and just report any issues.

It keeps coming back to males should never have been given any access to female single sex spaces. And those females happily giving access to single sex spaces to these males have done so without any thought to other female's needs.

And in the meantime, while lobby groups catch up and create third spaces, it is NOT up to females to have to continue to make room for vulnerable males in our single sex spaces.

If two men who look like men but no one knows their inner gender identity, what have they to be afraid of in a man’s changing room?

'It keeps coming back to males should never have been given any access to female single sex spaces. And those females happily giving access to single sex spaces to these males have done so without any thought to other female's needs.'

SOME males. In actual real life-

I have had meetings about this topic (relevant to our sector, group looking at this topic 8 men and me), heard it come up in pub a few times / it's come up chatting (v friendly locals place), with my family, and a load of DH mates.

They all know. Not think. Doesn't require thought. They KNOW it's ridiculous nonsense. And they KNOW it is utterly obviously shit for women.

And it's hardly surprising. IME men generally with women they are related to friends with etc. Are usually concerned, often even MORE concerned about safety than the women are, when it comes to things that might give an opportunity for a dodgy bloke to do something.

Why? Because they KNOW what men can be like. How they can think and behave.

AND.

This hardly ever gets mentioned though...

-Schoolboys who aren't under 7 or something. Do NOT want to change with any women or girls around. Boys are often vv shy about bodies. Esp through puberty. Same as girls. Plenty shy about that all life. Like girls, most hate communal changing full stop.

• Men and boys DO NOT want women/ girls in their bogs. They have urinals fgs. They do not want women wandering in when they've got their nob out and are taking a piss. let alone girls. That's surely obvious.

They also have RULES. Which are very rarely violated. Do not make eye contact. Try not to even look at anyone else in there. Obviously don't smile or say anything to them! Maintain as much distance as poss. Piss. Eyes forward. Zip. Leave. OBVIOUSLY they don't want women/ girls coming in!

The vast majority of men would be outraged if that started happening.

But oh look!

Women and girls have no interest in using the gents. Or taking their clothes off with a load of blokes there. Female trans people I'm guessing, unless they feel will not be clocked, use the women's. Or any individual facilities. Find ways so they feel comfy, and aren't in with men.

Plus. Generally. Women's stuff relabelled anyone. Gents still gents.

Men would NOT accept random women and girls in these spaces.
But it's rarely going to happen.
And the risk is not same as other way round.
And men have way less problem with telling others to sod off.

And during all the back and forth on this.

The bottom line is that.

EVERYONE knows that-

In general men are bigger, stronger than women and boys bigger, stronger than girls.

Men in general are WAY more aggressive, violent, dangerous than women.

When it comes to sexual violence, at population level, it's as good as one way. News report of woman or girl being- Flashed at. Street harrassment / obscene comments. Attempted abduction. Sexual assault. Rape. Missing found dead and not fully clothed. And etc.
Everyone thinks. Split second automatic. Man did it. Of course they do. How often are they wrong? Not anywhere near enough to think hmm. The mum? Sister? Gang of women?
.....

And loads more.

The to and fro with those who actively post on SM saying you're horrible to women who are... Unhappy... with gender> sex.

In the end it's pointless (most of the time not always).

Because everyone knows all this stuff.

People who say no no you're being racist/ sexist / males who aren't trans would never be there/ you're a misogynist holding women back with incorrect ideas that women are vulnerable to males etc etc.

They all know how it is. They know they are talking rubbish. They simply do not give s fuck about the female half of the population. And often just enjoy the sport of poking women with a stick.

Absofuckinlutely @CheeseMmmm

@Cheesemum

For you
It’s frustrating arguing with a brick wall, but you’ve made a few cracks in the mortar quite nicely.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10300295/Bearded-6ft-reporter-let-female-changing-room-stores.html

“CheeseMmm”
“Generally compared to segregation in USA in past.“

That is such an odd argument (I realise it isn’t yours CheeseMmm) If there were a place where everyone were the same colour so no chance of segregation being an issue, self Id type trans women and non binary men in female changing rooms, would still be a problem for those women.

It's not any kind of argument.

It's appropriation of totally different things, and taking anything that is of use. Often turning them against the groups that had come to them through years and years of thought, discussion, essays, books, evolving the points and refining them, creating short punchy ways of getting the core message out.

Feminism
gay rights movement
USA civil rights movement
Groups and orgs and individuals for people with DSDs
Key points used by pro choice activists
Disability activism
Men's rights types
And more.

They strip the context, bastardise the original meaning. Ignore the history. And spam out what's left.

The fact that segregation was USA. So what. Tell English women they did those things.
The fact that DSD orgs etc are nothing to do with this and there is a lot of anger.
And so on.

It's arrogant, disrespectful, dishonest, insulting, and many stronger words.

Of course this is done with no qualms.

Telling feminists they are anti abortion activists.
Telling black women they are white feminists.
Using people with DSDs as an argument for spreading drivel about human biology.

And on it goes.

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10300295/Bearded-6ft-reporter-let-female-changing-room-stores.html[/quote]
Kudos to the Mail and Womens Rights Network for getting that story out. It’s exactly what we’ve been banging on about on here for years. By allowing anyone to identify into a womens space, anyone can and will do.

The Mail may be doing this for sensationalist reasons, but in doing this, is doing good work. Like the man who ran the race in the female category at Trinity College.

I think that the Mail has realised they are getting so many eyes on these articles that they will persist. And it is not like they have been known to back down with threats in the past.

And where the Mail goes, others follow.

No debate is dead. Those ‘debating’ are being shown to have nothing but emotional stories not robust studies and reality.

The ‘it will never happen’ is case by case crumbling and the pressure to silence women who have been traumatised, women who are losing opportunities that should be going to females but are not, the previous attempts to silence detransitioners, is slowly losing power.

If you believe yourself an ally, how do you account for all these reports, including studies and statistics, that are inconveniently showing your argument points as lies. As points only being held up with ‘be kind’ to a subset of people while ignoring the needs of others.

If you are an ally, how have you lately calmed the dissonance that must be building to a crescendo by now.

I mean, a male swimmer who is currently racing at 2% off their personal best, while setting records in the female swimming category for Penn Uni, and swimming experts expect if they continue to swim as they are now they will match their personal best and completely blow away the claims that testosterone suppression removes advantage. It is the Laurel Hubbard of swimming but has the potential to actually set World records and is in their early twenties only.

A rape victim seeking to find a discreet solution so they can receive the care and support they need, complaining publicly when they are told their needs don’t count as much as any male’s needs, and has now been fully blocked from communication with that centre.

Now this. A bearded male reporter actively testing the changing room policies for major high street chains.

How do you square it knowing that there are women being harmed? And you are supporting this?

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10300295/Bearded-6ft-reporter-let-female-changing-room-stores.html[/quote]
That seems to make it clear that the next place to have serious words with would be the British Retail Consortium, who are advising their members to make the women who are their customers unsafe and unhappy for the benefit of a few benign trans people who have had surgery, and a whole lot of predatory males who have no intention of having voluntary surgery of any kind at present (and if they do it will be for prostate problems when they are in their sixties).

I think that is a great target for not just groups but a Baroness to write and seek clarification as to WHY they have prioritised gender over sex despite being able to invoke the clause in the EA. I mean, we know where the misinterpretation has come from, but this is important to untangle and get removed.