Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

'Everyone' includes females.

If the issue is safe spaces for male people then

1. deal with male violence and make male spaces more inclusive - sort that problem out without buggering up female spaces and excluding females from any space to give men more spaces. Female oppression and exclusion is not an acceptable answer to males having a problem.

2. sort out safe third spaces (and then watch the male people you offer them to have a whole lot of reasons why those spaces won't do and they must be in female spaces with females, with females either co operating with this or being excluded, female consent and access and inclusion and equality and feelings irrelevant.)

Female humans are not a resource to be used up for the betterment of males. Even really vulnerable males. Find answers for the group with the problem and stop dumping the problem on females and expecting them to suck up what you'd never dream of inflicting on a male. It's plain male supremacism.

What sort of bollock brain would do this to their kids

Am tired sorry dont recognise your user name, so
Is this a real question or rhetorical?

The question doesn't need answering Terfydactyl. I already know.

Because transgender and non binary people don't have a place to try clothes on. Everyone should have the right to safe places.

They do though don't they. Changing rooms are segregated by sex. So they go to the changing room according to the sex they are. It's not difficult to work out.

it could be a frightened transgender person

And it always comes down to this, why is it acceptable for any male to be in a female changing room?

We have had these conversations over and over. And the answer always seems women, do your job of providing safety to males who might be vulnerable!

I am actually tired of hearing this as an excuse for males to be in female single sex spaces. My answer to this quickly became ‘if stonewall spent their time addressing getting extra provisions for these males instead of forcing women to give up their own spaces, imagine where we’d be now. There’d be clarity about who used what spaces and many people would be feeling safe.’

But instead, Stonewall took another path. But one that was directed by males who had spent years using these spaces without asking but just feeling entitled. Like it was the solution to their problem but they never asked the residents. Now they are stuck and they realise the residents are not giving way so they play the sympathy card.

Yep me and my kids are not safety guards for men or anyone binary person

We need to feel safe when the buggy doesn’t fit in. Same for toilets

Them men are just trampling over us cos the stupid companies think we don’t matter

We do matter. We should matter

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Because transgender and non binary people don't have a place to try clothes on. Everyone should have the right to safe places.

They do though don't they. Changing rooms are segregated by sex. So they go to the changing room according to the sex they are. It's not difficult to work out.

This keeps being avoided.

DBI78 you do realise that trans people have constantly told us they are no longer denying their sex? They know they are male or female and that they cannot change sex.

Although, from looking at twitter today it seems some prominent activists are back on the redefining of male/female to try to destabilise it to suit their personal needs rather than science/medical/society as a whole.

Stonewall have fallen a long long way.

it could be a frightened transgender person

I doubt that's the reason. Although frightened or not, they don't get to use my daughter as a human shield to protect themselves.

Why does trans woman being frightened matter more than a woman being frightened?

@EricCartmansUnderpants

it could be a frightened transgender person

I doubt that's the reason. Although frightened or not, they don't get to use my daughter as a human shield to protect themselves.

It could also have just been a couple of cross-dressers, or other journalists testing out the situation regarding access to women’s changing rooms (article to follow shortly, could be Grauniad), or aliens that had just come down to earth and both assimilated the first 6ft human they came across. Still shouldn’t have been there, and put those women in that situation.

If they both were frightened TW, a polite word to the shop staff and checking with anyone within the changing room first, and ensuring the lady trying on the top was afforded the privacy she needed, would have been the appropriate way to proceed.

Also, how many scary men were active in the men’s changing room downstairs at the time, to warrant these two to flee to the women’s area?

‘If’ - such a world of possibilities.

What is always COMPLETELY ignored with this stuff is the general behaviour of men. Bog standard bloke men. Not in any way trans men.

(This is done for a reason, it's deliberate. Any point about the behaviour of average blokes is the vast majority of the time treated as if it were about males with trans identities. Acknowledging that a point is not about trans people but the millions of men who are not trans can't happen because there's no way to respond reasonably that also means gender > sex).

Contd...

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Why does trans woman being frightened matter more than a woman being frightened?

I feel both are important and neither should feel unsafe.

And in this case, there was two males who certainly seemed to be able to support each other.

So, in this particular case, why would anyone bring up a frightened male? Unless it was more distraction or more attempting to control women’s discussion/writing about their concerns.

And weren’t we told earlier on this thread that the likelihood of being harmed physically was low in a busy store’s changing area? So again, why bring a frightened male into this discussion.

And as other poster’s say, why is a male’s fright more concerning than a female’s fright?

The sexism simply keeps on going.

If they both were frightened TW, a polite word to the shop staff and checking with anyone within the changing room first, and ensuring the lady trying on the top was afforded the privacy she needed, would have been the appropriate way to proceed.

Two men strolling into the women's changing room. They weren't frightened. They got away with it because they were allowed to. It's nothing to do with fear and everything to do with power. Anyway there was nothing to stop the assistant at the men's changing room checking to make sure it was clear before they entered. No need to use the women's.

@Helleofabore I would also hazard to suggest that the likelihood of two 6ft males being afraid of anything fairly slim - even when head-to-toe in sequins.

There is no argument here.

@EricCartmansUnderpants

If they both were frightened TW, a polite word to the shop staff and checking with anyone within the changing room first, and ensuring the lady trying on the top was afforded the privacy she needed, would have been the appropriate way to proceed.

Two men strolling into the women's changing room. They weren't frightened. They got away with it because they were allowed to. It's nothing to do with fear and everything to do with power. Anyway there was nothing to stop the assistant at the men's changing room checking to make sure it was clear before they entered. No need to use the women's.

Exactly. @DBI78 is doing nothing but deliberately trying to obfuscate, just as Cordy was.

I was just unravelling their point.

Loads of ordinary bloke men have way less interest in abiding by boundaries in general, if it suits them not to.

Example.
Last two jobs in fancy offices, 10 years overall.
Mention fancy because each floor ample toilet provision for men and for women on each floor. Even in ladies having to wait v rare and only at popular time to leave for the day.

Mens urinals cubicles would put money on queuing unheard of.

Each floor accessible toilet as well. Both places next to ladies.

Very occasionally when leaving ladies would see woman come out. Like rare.

OFTEN would pass as man was coming out. Said man would often look sheepish. I noticed and so wondered.

Anyway turned out loads of men preferred the accessible one for crapping. And most women are aware of the time consuming nature of defecating when male. Namalt obv before derail. But it's a well known (often frustrating) thing.

I seem to remember bizarrely that it came up in conversation with the men I sat with. And one said well it's more private and comfy. And I said, but it's for people who need it, you have gents.

And he said hoho you're telling me you don't use accessible/ disabled only toilets if handy? I said... No. He said. I don't believe you. Why the hell not?

This is not uncommon. Have a more extreme story if interested!

@EricCartmansUnderpants

it could be a frightened transgender person

I doubt that's the reason. Although frightened or not, they don't get to use my daughter as a human shield to protect themselves.

That one doesn't fly anyway, because reading the article makes it clear that it was two completely unafraid obviously male people.

Because transgender and non binary people don't have a place to try clothes on. Everyone should have the right to safe places.

By Jove I think you've got it! A third space!

Except there isn't a single transgender, non-binary person or self entitled man who wants that.

It would be a piece of piss, wouldn't it. An extra space.

But it doesn't happen, they don't want it, no one is campaigning for it, because it's not about the space.

It's about the women in the space.

Transmen aren't clamouring to get into men's changing rooms or loos or prisons, or beating them at sport. They're not making the staff and patients on men only wards feel uncomfortable.

That's not happening. Because it's not about 'identity'.

It's about women, and men wanting to be included in their spaces for validation and/or just to dominate. Which is the same thing.

Do you seriously think there's not a woman here who hasn't suggested a third space? Over and over. It's rejected out of hand.

It's about the women and access to them.

Can't we just have penis and vagina rooms? Toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards...everywhere we need seperate spaces. Just check your genitals before you enter and be aware you can be checked.

Reading article iirc men's clothes changing upstairs.

So say these 2 male presenting males were buying some clothes for a fancy dress party, stag night or similar.

The men's changing is upstairs. They are shopping downstairs and may want to try, go get different size or something different etc.

Tronking up and down the stairs is a total pita.

They know it's ok for males to use women's now in general and if anyone says anything they can say magic words. And not only will that mean they can do it, they can also say that it's wrong to say no and they could get in trouble etc.

As a female woman who is getting on a bit I GUARANTEE that some men will simply think. This much more convenient, it's allowed, why the hell not? Cubicles, won't be long, not like we're going to do anything dodgy.

I find the total refusal to acknowledge how given the millions of men in the country, given the green light some of those millions IE that's a lot of men. Will see no sense in putting themselves out when something better for them.

And that's before getting anywhere near the dodgy blokes side of it.

Also few posts on taking money elsewhere.

Yes in theory.

In practice what will happen as becomes more known it can happen is stuff like-

Loads of women buy, try at home, return. (much more effort time etc).

• Women start shopping in pairs more with one positioned outside friends cubicle, then swap so other can try.

Anyone who says that's ludicrous. Is somehow unaware that having a friend/ mum etc outside holding curtain so not gappy is v common. Especially combo female child changing esp teens. Loads girls (and many boys) become painfully shy about their bodies when developing and for girls mum holding the curtain and promising not to move is just a normal thing.

• buying from internet. Again just not the same as trying in store. Doesn't fit, isn't cut right etc. Return wait for delivery different size etc. Yes we're getting used to it but it's still not great.

• Girls must keep eye out for each other/ be aware generally, keep look out for phones sneaking under any gaps/ what to do if male comes in, possibly don't use full stop bring home. For teens shopping that's removing most of the reason for going with a friend!

As ever, women and girls will gradually start to change habits, be more cautious. And that will be it.

'but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?'

Of course she fucking didn't! Very very few women (girls) would quiz two males in those circs! Don't you know ANYTHING about society, men, women etc?

And anyway. Why? They were allowed to be there. Plus even asking the question is MASSIVE no-no we're constantly informed. Transphobic, causes upset, unfair, body policing etc.

Do you REALLY not know why women and girls usually think twice, 3 times, 4. Consider all sorts of factors. When considering challenging men? Even one man? And even when something outrageous is happening? How likely to listen let alone do anything other than ignore or laugh or say fuck off and carry on/ how likely to kick off/ are other people about in case goes bad etc etc.

The constant feigned or somehow (!) genuine total ignorance as to real life on all this stuff. The refusal to acknowledge let alone customer for 1 sec they may have a point. Rather than making up scaremongering lies.

Might as well be a being neon sign saying.

Don't give a toss about women and girls. Do as you're told FFS and stop making a fuss it's just irritating.