Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

What's all this rubbish about men being 'frightened' of being in spaces allocated for men? When was the last time any of us heard of any male, however identifying, being beaten up (in the UK) in men's loos or changing rooms? And Zara, FFS!

If it happens, it's very rare. Whereas women feeling invaded, threatened, colonised, you name it, by men where we don't expect to find them ... that's guaranteed.

Odd that my comment of 21:33 has been deleted.

Any info, Mumsnet?

If I disappear altogether, it won’t be me flouncing

Men's changing is generally

Usually/ often hardly anyone in there.
Often proper doors as opposed to flimsy curtains.
I would guess similar behaviour to men's bogs. No eye contact, pretend they not there.
Men in situations where only men there and feel vulnerable/ embarrassed.
Vv wanting privacy and vv careful to respect privacy of others.

Men and I've asked a few blokes did not have communal changing in shops. The ones I asked were shocked we did sometimes they looked flabbergasted. Just unheard of!

All I'm saying is to me this highlighted a need to change things so everyone can feel safe.

So what happens until these safe third spaces are available? Do you think it is acceptable for male people to go into female changing rooms?

Just to follow on from Datun's last post - There have been so many threads over the time I've frequented this board where someone new to the debate innocently says 'but wouldn't 3rd spaces meet the needs of everyone? Then people have lots of options', the regular posters say 'that would be ideal and would be good for other groups of people as well' and a TRA always, always pops up to say 'transphobes!!! That's othering!!! How dare you police these spaces!!! They just want to pee!!!'

TRA's aren't interested in a solution. If they were, Stonewall would be campaigning for 3rd spaces. They're not because it's about taking over single sex spaces and telling women to suck it up and get on with it. It's the beginning of the return of the urinary leash.

And oh, the tiresome 'genital inspection' comments. If I never hear again 'are you suggesting genital inspections at the entrances to toilets? You're obsessed with what's between people's legs!!', it will be too soon.

So fight for change. So everyone is comfy.

Very hard to get this sort of change.

And in reality 3rd spaces are seen as not a good option. This definitely seems to be the majority view I have seen amongst trans orgs, individuals, allies. The reason is it's outing, othering. Upsetting as means separation from other women and girls. That's the general view.

The argument was safety going back a while. Now it's about acceptance rather than othering. Generally compared to segregation in USA in past.

So that's out. Any other ideas?

@334bu

*All I'm saying is to me this highlighted a need to change things so everyone can feel safe.*

So what happens until these safe third spaces are available? Do you think it is acceptable for male people to go into female changing rooms?

The other big question is.

Until (if) things are changed.

Why was and is the default to change how single sex spaces work? Have worked for yonks, were accepted by society as existing for a good reason, and violation was a total societal no-no.

When surely the obvious natural automatic thing to happen was, given the long-standing, obvious need and desire for how things were, and not change anything until the needs, risks, options etc were pinned down and everyone thought yes fine?

In short. Why in a short space of time were all women's long-standing single sex things opened up to males on the basis that they might prefer to use them due to how they feel.

When it was so obviously a massive change that obviously would not be supported by most of the population INCLUDING MEN.

Do you mind if I shamelessly share this, from another thread? It’s very interesting:

Also this:
www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Politics-Bold-Women-Organize-ebook/dp/B09GR9SNRS/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=natasha+chart&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1638834634&sr=8-2

Cool. So the solution is not men in women's changing room then and therefore the comment that it could have been a frightened transgender person was completely irrelevant

I like John Lewis. A bloke was stood in the female changing rooms whilst his wife tried on clothing and they asked him to kindly stand outside.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Cool. So the solution is not men in women's changing room then and therefore the comment that it could have been a frightened transgender person was completely irrelevant

Sorry, I didn't quote properly. This was q response to the poster who said that they may have been frightened transpeople and when asked why a trans person's fear was more important than a womans said they were both equally important.

camperqueen54 John Lewis on twitter:

as an inclusive business, our policy states that customers are welcome to use whichever fitting room with which they feel most comfortable.

The shop assistant might have been sensible. But effectively John lewis' changing rooms are mixed sex.

Indeed. This man made the mistake of not claiming to be a woman.

It wasn't a frightened trans person though.

It was two male people who presented as male.

I've seen comments eg
What does them being 6ft have to do with it some women are 6ft they can't come in??!!
How do you know they weren't trans?

Disingenuous claptrap making obviously ludicrously gotchas. Having great sport putting forward bizarre 'arguments'' and enjoying watching women tie themselves in knots trying to explain THE BLEEDING OBVIOUS.

The fact that women are not at all happy with single sex everything, the women's being opened to any and all men. The obvious risks. The obvious reasons beside risk. The obvious reasons they exist in the first place. To be met with this sort of shit on this topic is just a huge fuck you to our whole sex.

Do you notice how when you say individuals what you actually mean is males?

Inclusion' is actually only inclusion if it means equal ease and freedom of access for all. And that does include female people. Many of whom can only access a space if it is female only.

The main problem you have with the article is its equality of thinking instead of being heavily filled with signals to males that obviously they're most important.

brilliant as always @Artichokeleaves

aninjusticemag.com/mumsnet-how-poor-moderation-created-a-transphobic-swamp-adf391ccf9fc

@Artichokeleaves

The basic rule has become 'people who are male get to do whatever they like (largely because they kick off at the word 'no' or any hint that they might want to consider their impact on others), and females - can put up or give up the space and leave'.

I think we've destruction tested the idea that male people choosing their own spaces would have no impact on female people or their access, and it would all be a lovely happy paradise of rainbows and unicorns.

As a matter of fact it has proven two things:

1. The UK is quite unbelievably sexist. There has been zero progress on this. Society operates wholly on sex based thinking, and this needs addressing because ffs, the 1950s are not coming back and at this point it's about some male people treating female people as less human, lesser beings, subordinate to them, while knowing full well it's a lousy thing to do and all about bad behaviour and entitlement. Time to do something serious about this as a society.

2. Female people need single sex spaces, because any mixed sex space is dominated by male people, some of whom take what they want and meet their own needs without the faintest interest or regard or respect for female people in that space, or how their actions affect or exclude female people. There will be no good will. There will be no mutually respectful behaviour. There may quite often be loud, aggressive behaviour to get own way if female people try suggesting that they might be a bit more considerate and equality minded. (See fuckton of evidence.) There will be zero conscience or caring about females or their problems. (See 1.) Any shouting about equality will actually translate as 'do what I want' as opposed to any interest in actual equality and others having rights too.

Now we've proven that this doesn't work for female people in society without legal, enforcable boundaries (at this point cue some male people raging that they will come in anyway and no one can stop them which kind of proves all over again why female people need those legal boundaries because nothing else but legal consequences will manage this awful behaviour) those legal boundaries need putting back.

This has, very predictably, just turned into a total shitshow of male supremacism, entitlement and enjoying being allowed to jump up and down on female boundaries. While gleefully explaining that women can't stop them.

I won't be settling for this.

Well said

Smellysocks86. Are you a student at Sussex university by any chance? You'll spot your friends on another thread here if so 😉

@Smellysocks86

Fight Hate!
Against women and children.
It’s time.

And that piece you link to is disgusting. I don’t know who those women were but I’m about to join them.

we've destruction tested the idea that male people choosing their own spaces would have no impact on female people or their access

Yes. what trans activists ask for aren't rights. We have SINGLE SEX SPACES for a number of very good reasons and do not need to PROVE we need them.

@Smellysocks86 The angriest end of the trans lobby are aggressive, hostile and call Mumsnet a transphobic swamp, because misogynists are aggressive and hostile. It's bigoteering (falsely accusing of phobia) against large numbers of women who would otherwise have been extremely sympathetic allies

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Because transgender and non binary people don't have a place to try clothes on. Everyone should have the right to safe places.

They do though don't they. Changing rooms are segregated by sex. So they go to the changing room according to the sex they are. It's not difficult to work out.

Thank you. I was going to say just that.

@FindTheTruth

we've destruction tested the idea that male people choosing their own spaces would have no impact on female people or their access

Yes. what trans activists ask for aren't rights. We have SINGLE SEX SPACES for a number of very good reasons and do not need to PROVE we need them.

@Smellysocks86 The angriest end of the trans lobby are aggressive, hostile and call Mumsnet a transphobic swamp, because misogynists are aggressive and hostile. It's bigoteering (falsely accusing of phobia) against large numbers of women who would otherwise have been extremely sympathetic allies

Note there is no response to the issues raised. No care or kindness or even basic engagement with the needs of females. Just straight to slurs and abuse for daring to talk at all rather than bow down.

Link this today to the BBC article about Stonewall trying to get female people criminalised for 'stirring up transphobic hate' (which is what this thread would be referred to, because female people stating needs, problems, conflicts of interest, wanting equality of access and consideration with male people is obviously hate isn't it?) and there you go.

Male supremacism enforced by law, and a two tier society where by biology, female people have less rights, less access and live in fear of resisting it, and male people have a whole lot more.

Will the British govt kindly wake the fuck up?

That was it was it smelly ?

Not even a smidge of s debate from you

Just a plop…of someone else’s work….and run

And that piece you link to is disgusting. I don’t know who those women were but I’m about to join them.

The fabulous Man Friday. Headed by Amy Desir and Hannah Clarke, both former MNers.

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/09/interview-uk-women-self-identifying-men-challenge-proposed-changes-gra-part-manfriday/