PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

[nauticant]

Evan Davis said that there will be a "good natured" chat about this in tonight's programme. This will give him a chance to demonstrate again his well-known impartiality on this issue.

It's not yet clear when this segment will be in the programme.

May be they'll start claiming that the gay penguins are really just trans

I hope they bring in a talking object so that IW can take turns talking effectively.

@MonsignorMirth

Didn't hear it - can anyone quickly just write the definition here? Ta v much.

gender identity just quite simply who you are - so if you don't have one, you are a nobody. Cool I guess.

All stereotypes again. Basically.

What that hugely edited because KS didn't seem to say anything at all.

Rather disappointing interview and discussion piece, I thought

I don't think India has much idea about bird behaviour.

The usefulness of the discussion depends on what you're trying to get from it. In terms of making the gender identity ideology more comprehensible, it was rubbish. In terms of enabling some of the audience to start realising that they can't make any sense of the gender identity ideology, well, it could be useful.

Did KS actually speak?

Very disappointing.

And wtf was India trying to say with "I'm sure you think it's as easy as buying a pair of shoes"?!

I don't know if it was meant to be deliberately goady a la Caitlin Jenner's "the hardest thing about being a woman is choosing what to wear," but that is how it came across to me.

Evan Davis remains the most useless R4 presenter. One day he will ask a question worth the breath it takes to form it. That day will herald the end times.

Ugh, how infuriating.

If you feel moved to do so, do consider emailing PM with your thoughts. They quite often read out messages and emails and if they will indeed be covering this topic again in the future, presumably they'll pay attention to listener feedback.

This page on the BBC website has details of how to get in touch: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/6HM9VZ1mvwz0RGJFJx6F6X/contact-us

Heard snippets (kept getting interrupted by DD) but what I did hear seemed to be was where KS started to talk, IW butted in, talked all over her and Evan pipped up to ask KS a different question when she hadn't had a chance to answer the first one because someone couldn't keep their trap shut when it wasn't their turn to talk.

Then Evan agreed they all had a really good chat, he wanted to delve into it some more, would they agree to come back, both said yes please, all sounded very friendly.

Now IW on twitter is now saying they had a horrible experience because they couldn't mention how someone wanted to eliminate them most likely because it's not fucking true they are in shock and have to have a think.

Can't be being seen having had a rational chat with KS on the radio, what if they turn on you for engaging with her?! Better claim victimhood status!

Had a look at IW's twitter, thanks, Mumm.

IW commented on Tommy Sheridan promoting the FWS meeting on 6th December on Self ID.

IW described TS as a "right wing nut".

Hilarious.

@AssassinatedBeauty

Prof Stock versus India Willoughby strikes me as a slightly uneven battle of wits...

Not to worry. India just talked over Kathleen in typical [deleted identifier] way. Kathleen has more patience than me.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

You should ask Feathers McGraw, he identifies as a chicken.

he does dress like a chicken though and if you squint he LOOKS like a chicken so.....probably a chicken

That was odd. Evan can't understand why it's so vicious because there's quite alot of agreement between ks & iw - in that they both agreed some ppl feel v strongly they have a gi, some ppl feel v strongly they dont. Some ppl think gi is the more significant factor, others think sex is. But the reason it's so vicoous is because those 2 world views clash in policy making. But he didn't want to talk about that.

One of the other reasons it's so vicious is people like Evan, and Evan himself, have been engaged in nodebate for at least 3 or 4 years. They should have been curating the discussion so that it could happen in a sensible way. Instead it's been allowed to happen in a completely dysfunctional unregulated way.

I was going to say IW doesn't subscribe to some of the 'sex is a social construct' stuff, but then i remembered her cervix! Thats the opposite to the female penis though. She obviously sees gi as biological in some way. And she was against self id when the gra change was proposed. So she isn't that representative of the gender ideas that have been influencing policy.

IW has blocked me so I can't see India's tweets.

I found the fact that Evan really didn't want to talk about the practical implications of the ideology he supports really revealing. Basically he articulated his 'lalalala not listening' stance.

@Melroses

I don't think India has much idea about bird behaviour.

Lions and clown fish and penguins…oh my!

She obviously sees gi as biological in some way.

Yes, she's a born-in-the-wrong-body adherent, so for India the gender identity comes from a pink or blue brain.

IW is having a bit of a Twitter melt. Basically saying she needs to process the ‘horrible experience’ of not being allowed to say that someone is trying to ‘eliminate’ her. Then #BBC
Any more and she probably won’t be invited back on - the implication is that she is being censored... whilst on national radio

Evan did say the priceless phrase

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

Which is progress on his part, I think.

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

It's more that

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still BE a man inside"

I kept waiting for the discussion to move on from penguins and shoes and 'isn't this nice that we can all be friends' to actual lawmaking. The troublesome fact that laws can't be made around feelings, regardless of what three year olds think. And that women are still discriminated against in the workplace, disadvantaged by biology and raped and murdered by men at frankly fucking terrifying rate, regardless of how they feel inside.

I haven’t heard it but just read the comment about IW calling Tommy Sheridan a right wing but 😆

The content of this “discussion” lacked depth, and any actual discussion. However it’s all sunlight and even Evan Davis may learn something.