PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

[nauticant]

Evan Davis said that there will be a "good natured" chat about this in tonight's programme. This will give him a chance to demonstrate again his well-known impartiality on this issue.

It's not yet clear when this segment will be in the programme.

Gender identity doesn't exist, and - if you can be trans without one - then it doesn't need to exist.

The burden of proof is on those who claim it does exist, and until they can come up with something that is not based on circular reasoning or sexist stereotypes then we shouldn't need to respond to them.

But hey-ho. I also believed it once. And I got very uncomfortable when I was challenged about it. Because I knew that I could not defend the claim.

@Clymene
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[quote SolasAnla]@Clymene
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Thank you!

@Selkiesarereal

I haven’t heard it but just read the comment about IW calling Tommy Sheridan a right wing but 😆

Was she thinking of Tommy Robinson??

@DebbieInBirmingham

Gender identity doesn't exist, and - if you can be trans without one - then it doesn't need to exist.

The burden of proof is on those who claim it does exist, and until they can come up with something that is not based on circular reasoning or sexist stereotypes then we shouldn't need to respond to them.

But hey-ho. I also believed it once. And I got very uncomfortable when I was challenged about it. Because I knew that I could not defend the claim.

That's really interesting, Debbie - the idea has seemed to permeate into everything which is why it's so frustrating that it can't be pinned down or articulated.

As I've said on another thread, my view on what being transgender means has travelled so far in the last few years, trying to take some concept of 'innate gender' into account that somehow isn't a load of sexist blue/pink brain/soul nonsense, that's it gone full circle and I'm far more 'able' to talk about people wanting to be the other sex or feeling masculine/feminine - things that I don't think are accepted as correct now? You'll know better than I...

I think so @malanimo

I don't like to be unkind but I have long suspected willoughby is not the intellectual equal of many of the women she is debating with. Unfortunately, it seems to be a common thread among some of the loudest voices.

Was she thinking of Tommy Robinson??

OK, just been off to google Tommy Sheridan

@Melroses

Was she thinking of Tommy Robinson??

OK, just been off to google Tommy Sheridan

You’re in for a treat! 😳

@ScrollingLeaves

“SpringCrocus

Evan did say the priceless phrase

"if you lopped off my kit and gave me hormones I'd still feel like a man inside"

Which is progress on his part, I think.“

The thing is, though, Crocus, when he said this, my interpretation was not that he meant you can’t change your sex by lopping off parts. I think he meant, “Ah yes, I see what you mean about identity. I have an inner “man” identity that couldn’t change.”

Ah. Yes. I see your point. Will go away and have a think about this. Will come back when I've done so.

See, IW, this is how sensible human beings react to dissent and differences of opinion!
We go away and think , then come back and re engage. Politely.

And, yes, I think I've maybe misinterpreted EDs comment. I thought he was agreeing with a sex based position, but it could well be he was agreeing with the whole "innate gender" shite opinion.

I’d heard of Tommy Sheridan but didn’t know much about him. I do now- he’s a bit of a character

I doubt he gets called right wing very often Novel!

I realise now what was annoying about the 'discussion' - I'ts ED's 'humouring' tone of voice. A sort of 'I know it's hysterical wimmin fussing about this but I suppose I'd better have this debate as the boss is demanding it'. He's not really interested in it, can't see what the fuss is about but it's just something he has to do.

Amol Rajan was the same, last week I think it was, interviewing a transwoman (I think it was) about a book she's written on the subject.

ED used this tone of voice a lot when Brexit comes up and he interviews brexiteers.

Smug successful men aren't going to give a monkeys

Did IW say that lions are trans because the lionesses do the hunting and penguins are trans because the father penguins take a turn looking after the egg?

Being trans isn’t only about enjoying shopping for shoes or buying and wearing different shoes?

Just been pondering the lions and penguins thing.

Can’t discover any more about IW’s perspective as I too have been blocked on Twitter despite never having had an interaction with IW (or anyone else for that matter) on Twitter or anywhere else. I suppose IW uses a block list of some kind.

I look forward to hearing more of Kathleen Stock on PM hopefully she’ll be allowed to speak first next time.

The lions and penguins thing was ridiculous. I’ve emailed PM (again).
Evan Davies is a plonker and I think is a bit disgusted by women and their bodies.

I assumed Evan Davis was bit a friend to women (I didn’t listen - my blood pressure can’t take much more).

So I hear IW made a bit of a boob of themselves, talked over people, and didn’t offer to show their cervix (which I believe they have done on twitter - offered that is)?

I think we assume gay men are friends to women (which they often are). My brother, who is gay, has many good women friends. He’s a medic and the only exams he failed when training were ob/gyn ones. He told me this was because he found it difficult to overcome his feelings of repulsion. I imagine other gay men have similar feelings and it colours their perception of women, perhaps at a level they’re not conscious of.

Oh no. Not really. I’ve many other ends of the spectrum!

@borntobequiet

I think we assume gay men are friends to women (which they often are). My brother, who is gay, has many good women friends. He’s a medic and the only exams he failed when training were ob/gyn ones. He told me this was because he found it difficult to overcome his feelings of repulsion. I imagine other gay men have similar feelings and it colours their perception of women, perhaps at a level they’re not conscious of.

And that also fuels their sympathy for men who identify as trans. They find women's genitals utterly repugnant and feel enormous sympathy for another man who wishes he could be one of those revolting creatures

I think it because they really suffer from the imposition of gender norms (especially if they are a bit camp). ED is of an age where you couldn't be out at work and at university. Thus they think "not being your true self" is the only issue

ED is also an economist and many of them are also pretty bad at seeing structural inequality.

ED is a raging misogynist. He always handles any issue to do with women - and especially feminism - with his patronising tone and his 1970s attitudes.

On Today he once asked if the decline in marriage figures is that the gender pay gap declining means women can’t find men who earn enough to be worth marrying.

@drwitch

I think it because they really suffer from the imposition of gender norms (especially if they are a bit camp). ED is of an age where you couldn't be out at work and at university. Thus they think "not being your true self" is the only issue

ED is also an economist and many of them are also pretty bad at seeing structural inequality.

He's the same age as me. I don't know anyone who was in the closet at university. Gays the word was opened in 1979. The 80s were when Thatcher introduced Section 28 as there was so much moral panic about homosexuality.

Honestly, it's not because of his age. It's because he doesn't like women.

I was at Oxford a couple of years after him and while many were out, many were not.

I'm not sure Stephen Twigg was out when he first became prominent in the union. I know that he was the object of many a female crush which wouldn't be the case had we known

I think I. Willoughby is referring to africageographic.com/stories/unravelling-the-mystery-of-mmamoriri-the-maned-lioness/. We know h doesn't approve of women having hair on our bodies, looks like the sexism extends to a lioness with longer hair on her neck too. www.independent.co.uk/voices/womans-hour-india-willoughby-leg-shaving-controversy-the-dorchester-feminist-female-appearance-shave-dirty-leg-hair-a7456421.html

@YourenutsmiLord

I realise now what was annoying about the 'discussion' - I'ts ED's 'humouring' tone of voice. A sort of 'I know it's hysterical wimmin fussing about this but I suppose I'd better have this debate as the boss is demanding it'. He's not really interested in it, can't see what the fuss is about but it's just something he has to do.

Amol Rajan was the same, last week I think it was, interviewing a transwoman (I think it was) about a book she's written on the subject.

ED used this tone of voice a lot when Brexit comes up and he interviews brexiteers.

Smug successful men aren't going to give a monkeys

I didn’t hear the Amol Rajan interview you mention here but Amol did put JKR in his Russell Prize for best writing last year and took some heat from TRAs for doing so.