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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?

215 replies

nauticant · 29/11/2021 17:03

Evan Davis said that there will be a "good natured" chat about this in tonight's programme. This will give him a chance to demonstrate again his well-known impartiality on this issue.

It's not yet clear when this segment will be in the programme.

OP posts:
loislovesstewie · 02/12/2021 06:50

BTW I think if IW actually knew anything at all about animals they would realize that it is very common for females to hunt or both parents to care for eggs/chicks. It often relates to how difficult it is to rear those young, whether the young have to grow very fast, or food is difficult to find etc, (think of the Emperor penguin at the South Pole for example, trying to keep a chick alive in sub-zero temperatures) If they are going to give examples at least do some research.

BettyFilous · 02/12/2021 07:00

From IW’s words: …all have an awareness of what sex we are, what gender identity we are by the age of 3…

Sleight of hand, interchangeable in IW’s head but in reality not. Wouldn’t it be great if we could pin some definitions down? It would immediately show this smoke and mirrors operation up for its lack of rigour and consistent logic.

Helleofabore · 02/12/2021 07:34

Hey PigeonLittle.

Thank you for the transcript. Flowers

Helleofabore · 02/12/2021 07:58

Reading that discussion back, I wonder though about this hard push from trans people that they know better than anyone. Without acknowledging that there are so many motivations for gender identity.

And that so many trans spokespeople have constructed some pretty precarious explanations and yet if they are questioned they fall back on the hyperbolic accusations.

And this ‘trans people are their own experts’ mantra is just as false as others.

It is feeding into the new ‘no debate’ era.

NecessaryScene · 02/12/2021 08:11

She was imagining that sex roles in animals is similar to gender identity in humans.

That's the thing, for me. My objections to "gender identity" are practical and reality-based ones, rather than a philosophical objection.

I do believe that there are statistically very real sex roles, and that to a significant extent there are sexed brains.

Not enough to justify any sort of discrimination or anything, because the overlap's too wide, but the behaviour distributions of males and females are not the same.

But "gender identity" is clearly not this sex role, because the vast majority of males claiming to have "female gender identities" clearly act VERY VERY male. And vice versa. It's just made up self-justifying nonsense.

Gender identity claims do have predictive value, sort of - males claiming "female gender identities" have clear characteristics, when taken in conjunction with their orientation. But it does not correspond to the claim. They don't act in more female-typical ways than other men.

The most clearly sexed brain thing is sexual orientation. To even remotely claim an "opposite-sex sex role" you'd have to be homosexual at a bare minimum. If that isn't included in the "sex role", nothing is.

And you'd have to objectively and logically test - claiming to "feel like a woman" is a very male-typical thing. It's actually part of the male sex role. Doing so should giving "male" points on a sex role score, not "female".

But this isn't a useful way to organise society, even if objectively tested. Behaviour, including any objectively detectable "sex role" is too much of a spectrum. It makes no sense to categorise based on it. Actual sex is the only practical split for things that need to be split, as well as being the important factor - the actual body. The vast majority of things shouldn't be split.

timeisnotaline · 02/12/2021 08:18

I think India must have been being extremely disingenuous on the radio if this is from today… so they can tweet it but say something different on the radio when someone can reply??

PM on Radio 4: what is gender identity?
Helleofabore · 02/12/2021 08:32

timeisnotaline

If that is a recent tweet, I think the media needs to stop giving IWilloughby airtime. They are not progressing the discussion. This focus clearly is taking a toll on them. If they want to just live their life and be happy, they need to walk away from the constant conversations.

The problem is when your belief is based on superficial foundations that lack substantive knowledge and depth, you are having to prop up those beliefs all the time.

timeisnotaline · 02/12/2021 09:00

I actually think it might not be today sorry, I just saw the screenshot on someone else’s post, I’m off work unwell and didn’t check it. So might be old and even since deleted. I do think it’s what India really thinks though, that cervix comment sounded very genuine!!

andyoldlabour · 02/12/2021 09:03

timeisnotaline

India is clearly an idiot of the highest magnitude and anyone who agrees with India is the from the same school.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/12/2021 10:11

I ‘d be interested to know more about how ‘imprinting’ might be a factor in creating a confused sense of identity in humans, in the way it is sometimes known to in the case of other animals. For example, when a duckling sees a boot after being hatched, instead of its mother, then follows the boots everywhere they go thereafter. Or, when a young, rescued wild animal is penned with another infant species in a sanctuary, and then when released tries to join a group of that different species even though it costs them their life.

Socialisation away from the norm is interesting in animals too, for example when a rescued fox befriends a chicken it has been kept with, or a dog doesn’t chase a cat it lives with. In these cases though the fox and dog would revert to chasing different chickens and cats outside.

I can certainly imagine body dysphoria being horrific, when it occurs - if I had a triple row of teeth for example. But even with normal body changes is not very easy to accept the changes of puberty at the best of times, or finding you hate the way you look for some other reason.

It might also be discomforting to accept being a certain sex if your parent of that sex behaves in a nasty way to you, or made you feel ashamed; or if they seem physically repellant ( dirty, lacking in self care, unpleasant habits). Or if the male parent seems misogynistic or vice versa both to their partner and/or to their opposite sex child. Conversely, a positive experience with a family member must make that phenotype attractive.

All in all, whatever a sense of self identity is, it must involve a complex interaction between the mind, the body and experience. Even just what a person does must create identity - dancer, singer, accountant, builder etc. The elements involved must extend so much beyond gender. It seems odd to fix on that. It is very worrying that children and teenagers might do so because of them being given the wrong impression.

I agree with a poster above that the actual sex of a person might well have more effect on behaviour than is currently believed - the expression of sex is not entirely social imo.
Though it is probably not possible to disentangle sex, experience, social conditioning, inborn personality, and the mind from each other.

But as for 3 year olds, I do think that they only consciously ‘know’ they are a girl or a boy in the simplest terms, based on the typical ways boys and girls look, and what they have been told. Their sense of self does seem to be strong enough though not to think they are like their pet, as far as I know. Though if they are brought up with a dog or cat they will play at being them, and might display a bit of ‘sibling rivalry’ with them. Conversely animals may try to act more like a child with their ‘parents’ when they live with a small child.

nauticant · 09/12/2021 17:43

In the promised follow-up, in today's PM programme Evan Davis is interviewing a (very late transitioning) transwoman who explains what being a woman means.

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StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 17:45

should be interesting

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 09/12/2021 17:48

Thanks for highlighting. Tuning in.

StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 17:49

he's confused himself isn't he (ED)

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 09/12/2021 17:50

Oops. That's going to upset IW

StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 17:51

what bollocks
exact the same shape as a woman
bollocks

nauticant · 09/12/2021 17:53

Lucy contacted the show as a listener. Was a father. Was encouraged to come out by late wife. Gender reassignment surgery at 70. Cosmetic vaginoplasty. They have a GRC and a birth certificate saying born a girl.

Lucy happy to say they're male and have Y chromosomes. "The absence or presence of reproductive capability is irrelevant." Consider themself to have a female soul. Evan Davis is absolutely loving this.

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StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 17:53

reproductive capability DOES count

nauticant · 09/12/2021 17:54

Lucy is offering the classic transsexual perspective and doesn't think mere gender identity is enough.

Lesbians are misandrist.

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StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 17:55

extreme misandry from lesbians!!!!

nauticant · 09/12/2021 17:56

I would have been reasonably happy to accept some of these views a few years back but now not so much.

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MidsomerMurmurs · 09/12/2021 17:57

Superlative mansplaining on Radio 4 just now

nauticant · 09/12/2021 17:57

More on the "extreme feminist lesbians".

Not homophobic, obvs.

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Livelifeinthebuslane · 09/12/2021 18:01

I heard in the headlines that this was going to be on and couldn't bear to listen. WTF are R4 thinking allowing the badmouthing towards lesbians?

StillWeRise · 09/12/2021 18:01

I wish they'd get someone on to do these interviews who actually understands the issues

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