Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

So the name calling begins.

Despite these views being legal.

So much hate.

Sad.

Masculine & feminine isn't male or female

Masculinity is a set of expectations pushed on the male sex

So you can say you choose your clothes based on how feminine your feel, that's fine

But feeling feminine isn't anything fundamentally about being female

Not all females feel feminine ever but they are still female biologically

Ie I don't have a period because I feel feminine, having a period doesn't make me feel feminine, it's just a thing that happens to female mammals

Please tell me then what you are if not a transphobe if I have been singled out as the only one here who supports trans people. If you don't support trans people, then what are you?

I think it's supporting a certain branch of trans ideology that you are being accused of

Many people support trans people without buying into the ideology

Ideology? Where's the ideology in trans and queer people just wanting to exist in a world without hate and prejudice?

Can't believe this whole shit storm started bc I and the others in this thread who said the same/similar things said something different to what OP said. Damn.

Imfluidlikewater:

‘I feel female? I put on skinny jeans and a t-shirt. I feel male? I bind and wear thick jeans and a hoodie. I feel neither? Usually I still bind and wear a hoodie, but sometimes I wear a sweater instead. My hair is short and beanies are my best friends smile
To say that just actions like putting up shelves or baking cakes means you might be genderfluid is utterly ridiculous and quite offensive honestly’

Do you honestly not see the ginormous logical contradiction between those two paragraphs?

The gendering of clothes is no less arbitrary and restrictive than the gendering of household tasks. If you are offended by the second paragraph there is no logical reason why the first should not be considered equally offensive.

That isn't ideology, that's normal and what I think many here want

Calling women cis or insisting that everyone has a gender identity or insisting on pronouns as none harmful is ideology and nothing at all to do with letting people get on with their lives

I am not legally required to 'support' anyone at all.

I am not required to follow Islam and pray to Allah.

I am not required to believe that the earth is flat and there be monsters.

I am not required to believe conspiracy theories or things that anti-vaxxers say.

I am not required to believe in gender ideology and that transwomen are women.

None of these things are objective facts. They are all beliefs that others have, that I do not share.

I am not required to share any of them, or go out of my way to support them. That is not phobic. It is freedom from forced beliefs. It is a human right. You may wish to read the human rights act.

I do not hate trans people. I simply have no interest in participating in something I do not believe in and that I consider harmful.

When genderists throw about insults and transphobe accusations, they do it to look like the victim. You are not a victim. You came here to discuss. We discussed. Now you are angry.

The difficulty is when 'supporting trans people' involves being asked to lie.

Thank you Chickeneyhead. I wish we could upvote comments.

@flygirl1983

Thank you Chickeneyhead. I wish we could upvote comments.

[quote ImFluidLikeWater]@Blibbyblobby I'll take from the feelings I experienced. I was extremely depressed and uncomfortable with my body. I hated mirrors or any reflective surfaces. Most days I preferred wearing loose clothing. I thought there was something wrong with me. Hearing me being referred to as "daughter" or "sister" made me uncomfortable in a way that's hard to describe. I always wanted my breasts to be smaller and less noticeable. Some days I'd be fine, but most days I wasn't.
If you feel comfortable in your body all the time, if you don't feel like your body should be more masculine or androgynous, if you think the sex you were assigned at birth(male or female) then good for you :)[/quote]
Thank you. What you describe makes total.sense with respect to your feelings about your body, but I don't follow why (to take a wider view) it means you are not "a woman", as opposed to you being a woman that has conflicted feelings about her body.

Or in the more general view, why a trans person's legitimate and valid feelings about their own body type has become taken to mean they are "really" a new type of the opposite sex rather than new type of person of their own sex.

Please understand I'm not trying to deny anything about your identity here. It's more about trying to understand why the solution has become "change the meaning of sex-based words to be a type of personality that people can opt out of" which as per my previous post has a huge and not good impact on all women, rather than "help and support people with gender dysphoria".

Because while, in a world where language had gone a different way, I could accept that I am a cis woman and you are a trans woman because I am a female who feels.. not necessarily "right" in my body but certainly I see it as an incontrovertible fact of my life, just one of the hands I have been dealt, while you are a female who feels disassociation from their body, I do not see how the logic follows that actually you are a different type of person and not female really at all, while a male who feels dissociation from their body is really in fact a "woman" who has more in common with me than you do.

That's where the idea of cis falls down for me. Not the idea that it means "female and ok with my body's sex", but the idea that the counterpart to my cisness is not "female but not ok with my body's sex" but somehow "male and not ok with my body's sex". To me that suddenly bundles in a whole load of extra baggage about minds and personalities which wasn't in your original explanation.

Do you see what I mean?

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel that's bc you're missing the point: I wear the clothes that make me feel the most comfortable. If building a shelf makes you feel uncomfortable bc it makes your hand hurt you don't continue building the shelf? It works the same way.

Tomorrow morning, I'm going to run for a bit. To prepare, I have to pour my breast into this bra harness I bought. It takes at least two minutes. Then I have to shove three tampons into my vag to stop me peeing myself after giving birth. I did not choose these things. I could identify as a man tomorrow and still have them.

@Blibbyblobby I am not a woman. I am uncomfortable with my body bc it is a "woman's body". It doesn't look like the body I want. I am also not a trans woman. Trans woman is someone who was assigned male at birth and has transitioned to female, so I'm closer to a trans male than trans female even though I'm neither (easy mistake to make tho just fyi)

[quote ImFluidLikeWater]@Blibbyblobby I am not a woman. I am uncomfortable with my body bc it is a "woman's body". It doesn't look like the body I want. I am also not a trans woman. Trans woman is someone who was assigned male at birth and has transitioned to female, so I'm closer to a trans male than trans female even though I'm neither (easy mistake to make tho just fyi)[/quote]
You're trying to escape being female in a pornified world. We are all trying that.

I'm not escaping being female. I explored my gender identity and found the one that makes me the most confident and comfortable. It's... not that hard to understand the difference??

@ImFluidLikeWater

I'm not escaping being female. I explored my gender identity and found the one that makes me the most confident and comfortable. It's... not that hard to understand the difference??

I'd like to be male. I have for 25 years when my dad made things clear. I'm not. I have huge breasts and birthed two children.

The answer is not to make people switch sex. The answer is to make sex not matter. But it still does.

You take whatever identity you like

Don't insist that others do the same

Don't insist that people treat you differently because of whatever identity you present

I will continue to believe that by accepting any gender identity you are reinforcing the notion that gender is a thing

A thing that means girls wear tight jeans or dresses ans boys don't
A thing where girls like and do different things to boys
A thing that is restrictive , harmful and unnecessary

Can you see that in a world that doesn't have "boys" and girls clothes , you wouldn't be able to express your identity in that way . And the only reason certain clothes are considered male is society, advertisers , influencers

I'd rather a world without boys and girls anything ( except body ) then everyone can refine their identity unconstrained

@ImFluidLikeWater

I'm not escaping being female. I explored my gender identity and found the one that makes me the most confident and comfortable. It's... not that hard to understand the difference??

So instead of putting 2 fingers up to an ideology that is rooted in misogyny, you’ve chosen to go along with it and select a constructed identity. It’s sad that some people don’t believe they can be themselves in terms of their sex. Society has a lot to answer for.

@bordermidgebite

You take whatever identity you like

Don't insist that others do the same

Don't insist that people treat you differently because of whatever identity you present

I will continue to believe that by accepting any gender identity you are reinforcing the notion that gender is a thing

A thing that means girls wear tight jeans or dresses ans boys don't
A thing where girls like and do different things to boys
A thing that is restrictive , harmful and unnecessary

Can you see that in a world that doesn't have "boys" and girls clothes , you wouldn't be able to express your identity in that way . And the only reason certain clothes are considered male is society, advertisers , influencers

I'd rather a world without boys and girls anything ( except body ) then everyone can refine their identity unconstrained

One sex has to do the work. The other doesn't. Why is this controversial?

[quote ImFluidLikeWater]@Blibbyblobby I am not a woman. I am uncomfortable with my body bc it is a "woman's body". It doesn't look like the body I want. I am also not a trans woman. Trans woman is someone who was assigned male at birth and has transitioned to female, so I'm closer to a trans male than trans female even though I'm neither (easy mistake to make tho just fyi)[/quote]
What is a woman? What’s your definition?

What on earth do you mean by one sex has to do the work ?

I work with a Sam in HR. Has a picuture and I still can't tell. They sent me guidance recently but weren't in. I had to ask their colleague and kept having to say their first name. I really, really didn't want to get it wrong.

While John with the beard might not need pronouns, him doing so makes it ok for Sam to maybe do so too.

What if Sam doesn't want to state their pronouns?

The fact that it's more convenient for others to be able to talk about someone who is gender non-conforming (or appears to be so in a tiny email photo) shouldn't factor into whether that person should label themselves - just call them by name or say 'they' if you're not sure.

Why put the onus on Sam to make your life easier by telling you which box to put them in?