Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

Damn, I didn't realise pronouns were such a hot take topic.
Hello, afab genderfluid person here! Normalising pronouns is important! That's why it's encouraged, for all those non-cis people who are nervous or scared about sharing their pronouns, or even annoyed (like me) about having to constantly correcting people who insist on using she/her just bc I was assigned female at birth and "look female". If those people see cis people opening stating their pronouns then they in turn will be more confident to share theirs. Is it really such a backlash for people who just want to be themselves? I know putting pronouns shouldn't be compulsory bc that would be ridiculous, but it's encouraged bc it's about progression. To make the world a safer place for LGBT+ people like myself :)
I do not see how being open and honest shows he's dangerous or naive, I see quite the opposite honestly.

I think you have taken a wrong turn.

Many here are Gender Critical. Essentially, we do not believe in the social construct of gender at all. We are not Cis and I would prefer that you don't gender me. Many of us believe that biological sex is important in a society where the sexes are not equal in strength and biological function. We reject gender stereotypes and believe that either sex should be free to express themselves as they choose.

My rights, not to believe in gender ideology, are protected under the Equality Act. As such they are neither transphobic, nor hate speech. They are my rights under Human Rights legislation.

You can request that someone complies with your request for compelled speech, but you cannot demand, or emotionally blackmail people to do so. Nobody has a duty to treat any section of society as extra special. Nobody is unsafe as a result of people not following their demands.

This rhetoric is not adequately evidenced and is used to silence women. It is excessively hyperbolic imho and is manipulative.

I will use people's names. I will try to use they/them. I will not use special pronouns for each person and expecting me to do so is unreasonable.

Normalising pronouns is important! That's why it's encouraged, for all those non-cis people who are nervous or scared about sharing their pronouns, or even annoyed (like me) about having to constantly correcting people

What about the many trans or gender questioning people who aren't ready to share their pronouns or who haven't decided which ones they're actually comfortable with yet?

If those people are the only ones without pronouns because everyone who is sure about their gender identity (whether trans or non-trans) has stated this to the world, it means they're likely to stand out.

It puts a great deal of pressure on them to rush their self-reflection in order to conform to society's expectation that they need to publicly state their inner sense of their relationship with gender to the world as soon as possible.

This means than undecided or struggling trans or gender-questioning people are being pressured into stating their pronouns before they are ready in order to be a good ally to the trans people who are more secure in their gender identity than they are and who are more comfortable than they are in publicly stating their gender identity.

Plus, there's the added pressure of being concerned that they will look like a bigot or non-ally if they don't state their pronouns. Stating pronouns is a deeply personal decision and it might be that they don't want to use the pronouns everyone else has assumed they will use.

Putting pressure on others because you've assumed they are 'cis' and that it's no big deal to them is massively out of order IMO.

Confused as to why normalising pronouns makes the world safer for anyone

?

Also think that use of the word normalisation is wrong

Pronouns are normal everyday thing already

The assumption that everyone here is ‘cis’ is offensive because it assumes that we all have a gender identity - ‘misgendering’ us, in your terms. Most of us actively reject that concept and would say we just have a sex.

As for pronouns making life better for LGBT+ people, I’m a lesbian & several other women are too, and being pressured to state my pronouns does me no favours whatsoever. If you haven’t read the full thread I recommend having a look at filia.org.uk/latest-news/2021/12/1/should-you-declare-your-pronouns-a-simple-guide which sums it all up very clearly.

Several other women here are lesbians too, I should have said.

@HelplesslyHoping

Having male pronouns are no different to having a male name. If anything I'd feel a little safer around him knowing he shares his pronouns so others feel more comfortable sharing theirs.

Any why, pray tell, does putting pronouns next to a name on an email make anyone feel ‘safe’? I’ve never sent nor received an email which includes pronouns. The vast majority of emails I receive are from people I will never meet in person, so what is the purpose? Absolute virtue signalling twaddle.

@ImFluidLikeWater

Damn, I didn't realise pronouns were such a hot take topic. Hello, afab genderfluid person here! Normalising pronouns is important! That's why it's encouraged, for all those non-cis people who are nervous or scared about sharing their pronouns, or even annoyed (like me) about having to constantly correcting people who insist on using she/her just bc I was assigned female at birth and "look female". If those people see cis people opening stating their pronouns then they in turn will be more confident to share theirs. Is it really such a backlash for people who just want to be themselves? I know putting pronouns shouldn't be compulsory bc that would be ridiculous, but it's encouraged bc it's about progression. To make the world a safer place for LGBT+ people like myself :) I do not see how being open and honest shows he's dangerous or naive, I see quite the opposite honestly.

No one is ‘assigned’ anything at birth, apart from their NHS number. Their sex is observed and recorded. When I speak to someone, I never need to use any pronouns, apart from maybe ‘you’ eg ‘can you go to the bar for the drinks please’. I certainly would never need to use them in an email. ‘Cis’ is a slur - don’t use it, it is offensive.

@Chickenyhead

I think you have taken a wrong turn.

Many here are Gender Critical. Essentially, we do not believe in the social construct of gender at all. We are not Cis and I would prefer that you don't gender me. Many of us believe that biological sex is important in a society where the sexes are not equal in strength and biological function. We reject gender stereotypes and believe that either sex should be free to express themselves as they choose.

My rights, not to believe in gender ideology, are protected under the Equality Act. As such they are neither transphobic, nor hate speech. They are my rights under Human Rights legislation.

You can request that someone complies with your request for compelled speech, but you cannot demand, or emotionally blackmail people to do so. Nobody has a duty to treat any section of society as extra special. Nobody is unsafe as a result of people not following their demands.

This rhetoric is not adequately evidenced and is used to silence women. It is excessively hyperbolic imho and is manipulative.

I will use people's names. I will try to use they/them. I will not use special pronouns for each person and expecting me to do so is unreasonable.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@ImFluidLikeWater I'm really interested in knowing what "gender fluid" means? Can you give me an explanation? I don't understand non-binary either. As in the case of Sam Smith, for example, he seems to be a man who likes to wear make-up (sometimes), and by doing so has got rid of the women's prize in the Brits... As far as I'm concerned, people can believe they are whatever they like, just don't expect me (or society) to believe it too...

The word "encouraged" is not the same as "demanded" or "emotional blackmail". I literally said making it compulsory and forcing them is ridiculous. This was just my take as someone who benefits greatly in confidence seeing and knowing other people's pronouns, especially before I talk to them.
As for the second comment, there is no rush. There should never be a rush to discover who you are. It took me about 4 years to settle with the label I have, and I could change at any time in the future if I find one that fits better. There isn't one group of people who should or shouldn't have their pronouns displayed. There is nothing bigoted or hateful about not having them displayed, or not wanting them displayed. It's when you begin assuming a man is dangerous because he has his pronouns displayed that it becomes a problem.

@ArtemesiaK Genderfluid means my gender identity changes. Sometimes I'm male, sometimes I'm female, sometimes I'm both, sometimes I'm neither. And I dress accordingly and use the pronouns I feel most comfortable with at the time.
Sam Smith is non-binary, and they use they/them pronouns. Same goes for other artists like Demi Lovato. Simple as that.

@Soontobe60 Please, cis is not a slur.
You identify with the sex you were assigned at birth? You're cisgender. You identify with a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth? You come under the Transgender umbrella. Sex and gender are different!
If you're offended by a word that existed for hundreds of years, then I think that's a you problem.

Please, cis is not a slur.
You identify with the sex you were assigned at birth? You're cisgender. You identify with a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth? You come under the Transgender umbrella. Sex and gender are different!
If you're offended by a word that existed for hundreds of years, then I think that's a you problem

I don’t have a gender identity. I am not cis, but neither am I trans. I don’t associate with female or male gender. Gender free, if you like.

Don’t assume I’m cis because my sex is female and I use pronouns associated with my sex. Well actually I don’t give a fuck what my pronouns are, people can call me what they want to.

@ImFluidLikeWater So it's clothes mainly then... and how do you know how it feels to be male or female if you've never been? Sometimes I make cakes, sometimes I put up shelves, am I gender fluid too? Or should I change my pronouns as to how I feel and expect everyone else to know how I'm feeling at the time?...
Sam Smith is non-binary because he uses they/them pronouns? Magic words exist then...

So because we don't "identify with the sex assigned at birth " then I guess we are all by your definition trans

We are Trans people who nevertheless think sex is still important, and who really think that sex based pronouns are totally fine

So insisting on stating pronouns and insisting that pronouns reflect gender not sex I'd not what all trans people want , clearly

I work with a Sam in HR. Has a picuture and I still can't tell. They sent me guidance recently but weren't in. I had to ask their colleague and kept having to say their first name. I really, really didn't want to get it wrong.

While John with the beard might not need pronouns, him doing so makes it ok for Sam to maybe do so too.

Or maybe it's an HR team policy and you're reading too much into it?

I use them, I'm not some raging trans warrior or virtue signaller, my employers suggested it, I was OK with it, we have global offices where some people may not know I'm female from my name (I have found it useful with names I'm unfamiliar with). I'd pick another hill to die on than making massive assumptions about people who use them, TBH.

Eh?

Is it really such a backlash for people who just want to be themselves?

When you disconnect pronouns from simple facts of body sex that say nothing about an individual other than the type of body they have, and make them something that is supposed to describe their personality, you are really asserting that women's minds are different to men's.

That doesn't just affect "people who just want to be themselves", it redefines and so affects every single one of us.

You force every single one of us to either accept being redefined as "someone with a womanny brain" or give up our own womanhood and therefore the rights and voices that we should as women have.

You take us back to the bad old days when women were excluded from economic and social power because they just didn't have the right type of brain.

You through the back door open up all single sex rights, protections and opportunities to mixed sex without ever going through a proper consultation or impact analysis that would allow us to reshape them in a way that is suitable given such a significant change.

It is a nasty, underhand way to go about things and it does not lead me to trust in the good intentions of those who cheerlead it.

So no, it's not just about you. The rest of us have a right to disagree with what you are imposing on us.

I am not denying you, or any trans person, your identity. I share your joy in the discovery of new aspects of yourself.

I simply say that if you need words to label the various facets of gender you believe in you should find new words and not appropriate existing ones that already have necessary meanings, because in appropriating them you unavoidably also make it about all the people you are affecting not just the ones who "just want to be themselves"

Here's a question for you...don't you think it would be better that "woman" and "man", "male" and "female" just went back to simply describing the body you have rather than trying to label something about people's minds, and you had brand new shiny words to build a gender-based world from the ground up unfettered by the old beliefs and assumptions?

@Echobelly

Or maybe it's an HR team policy and you're reading too much into it?

I use them, I'm not some raging trans warrior or virtue signaller, my employers suggested it, I was OK with it, we have global offices where some people may not know I'm female from my name (I have found it useful with names I'm unfamiliar with). I'd pick another hill to die on than making massive assumptions about people who use them, TBH.

Why is it important that you coworkers know that you are female?

You know I often work with people who don't know my sex until we meet

And it doesn't bother me if they get it wrong at all. Because it's work. It doesn't matter if I am make, female , black , white, disabled , religious

I would say it doesn't matter but actually it does , I actively go out of my way to avoid revealing my sex because ithere is too much stereotypes out there. Better relationships form if they think I am male until they get to know me better

"Eh?" addressed to mango....

@bordermidgebite

You know I often work with people who don't know my sex until we meet

And it doesn't bother me if they get it wrong at all. Because it's work. It doesn't matter if I am make, female , black , white, disabled , religious

I would say it doesn't matter but actually it does , I actively go out of my way to avoid revealing my sex because ithere is too much stereotypes out there. Better relationships form if they think I am male until they get to know me better

Indeed. I'd prefer to be regarded as male as long as possible.