Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

Quite simply, someone stating pronouns is declaring they think the difference between men and women is due to differences in their mind rather than their body and in doing so are assuming I, as a woman, must have one of those woman-type minds.

I like this @Blibbyblobby, a succinct and incisive description of the problem.

That’s excellent, blibbyblobby. I may borrow it.

Quite simply, someone stating pronouns is declaring they think the difference between men and women is due to differences in their mind rather than their body and in doing so are assuming I, as a woman, must have one of those woman-type minds.

I don’t care how well-meaning and open minded they intend to be, at the end of the day that is what they are actually saying. In being so keen to reject gender boxes for the body, they implicitly create gender boxes for the mind which IMO is far far worse.

So given the reality that having a female body in a sexist society has real consequences, and female people have been structurally disadvantaged exactly because they were assumed to have lesser minds than male, there is no way that will ever not be offensive to me, or deserving of my entirely rational anger.

Absolutely agree with pp - superb post, Blibbyblobby. Such a good point, so well articulated.

I'd be interested on your take on the large number of students (mostly biologically female) who insist (i.e would report me) if I don't refer to them as they and identify as non-binary. That's the biggest driver here for people using pronouns. A student led push to add pronouns changes in the internal version of zoom for the university used the link to explain to oldies like me https://lgbtlifecenter.org/pronouns/#columns-11*

In my inarticulate way this what led me and other male colleagues to add (he/him) something I've now already removed from email and will take from my zoom, especially as we go face to face for most classes nowadays.

Is the case, ONLY LGBT non-binary should update pronouns to remind the hetro majority they are uncomfortable with he/she??

I ask with all genuineness and not trying to score points or anything, I genuinely need to think about this a lot more than I have in the past.

My advice on this based on where it seems the law currently is would be to respect their pronouns and make an effort to get it right.

Obviously, you'll slip up from time to time and I know from personal experience that it can be a real struggle dealing with groups of people with lots of different pronoun iterations, especially when people change them from the ones you've just got to grips with and when odd combinations come up like "they/hem", etc, where it's hard to tell if it's a zoom typo or a conscious choice, and so on.

I would take it as a request students are making, akin to stating a preferred version of their name, etc, so while it's massively challenging, if you're seen to be making an effort, then it protects you somewhat if anyone reports you for messing up, as it's clearly not malicious.

Respecting other people's pronouns is a distinct issue from stating one's own, and you are perfectly within your rights to refuse if your boss insists (with no explanation needed).

When considering what's most sensible legally, I think it helps to move away from thinking about classes and groups and who's inside and outside of them, and view it more in terms of mutual respect - as in I will respect others' choices and make an effort to use their preferred pronouns, and in return I expect them to respect my refusal to state my pronouns and to respect my right to a privacy and freedom of thought, etc.

I think it's not so much that only trans/non-binary people should add their pronouns but more that (1) it is a deeply personal decision to do so and should never be mandated by an employer, colleagues or students and (2) non-trans men also need to give careful consideration the impact on women (who are protected from sex discrimination and harassment under the Equality Act) of stating their male pronouns. Men have more of a responsibility than women to carefully consider this issue wrt stating their own pronouns because of the inherent power imbalance between the sexes.

I definitely think as a man, you've made the right decision in removing your pronouns as it can be really upsetting for women (and non-binary female people who don't identify as women) to see that. Some students will want you to add your pronouns, but for every person who does, you will potentially be offending hundreds more. Plus, in your field, it absolutely makes sense to think this through carefully (as you're obviously doing) as others will be looking to you as an expert in this stuff.

@DaddyPhD Sex Matters have a good guide to the legal position on pronouns:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

@LonginesPrime

I'd be interested on your take on the large number of students (mostly biologically female) who insist (i.e would report me) if I don't refer to them as they and identify as non-binary. That's the biggest driver here for people using pronouns. A student led push to add pronouns changes in the internal version of zoom for the university used the link to explain to oldies like me [[https://lgbtlifecenter.org/pronouns/#columns-1]]1*

In my inarticulate way this what led me and other male colleagues to add (he/him) something I've now already removed from email and will take from my zoom, especially as we go face to face for most classes nowadays.

Is the case, ONLY LGBT non-binary should update pronouns to remind the hetro majority they are uncomfortable with he/she??

I ask with all genuineness and not trying to score points or anything, I genuinely need to think about this a lot more than I have in the past.

My advice on this based on where it seems the law currently is would be to respect their pronouns and make an effort to get it right.

Obviously, you'll slip up from time to time and I know from personal experience that it can be a real struggle dealing with groups of people with lots of different pronoun iterations, especially when people change them from the ones you've just got to grips with and when odd combinations come up like "they/hem", etc, where it's hard to tell if it's a zoom typo or a conscious choice, and so on.

I would take it as a request students are making, akin to stating a preferred version of their name, etc, so while it's massively challenging, if you're seen to be making an effort, then it protects you somewhat if anyone reports you for messing up, as it's clearly not malicious.

Respecting other people's pronouns is a distinct issue from stating one's own, and you are perfectly within your rights to refuse if your boss insists (with no explanation needed).

When considering what's most sensible legally, I think it helps to move away from thinking about classes and groups and who's inside and outside of them, and view it more in terms of mutual respect - as in I will respect others' choices and make an effort to use their preferred pronouns, and in return I expect them to respect my refusal to state my pronouns and to respect my right to a privacy and freedom of thought, etc.

I think it's not so much that only trans/non-binary people should add their pronouns but more that (1) it is a deeply personal decision to do so and should never be mandated by an employer, colleagues or students and (2) non-trans men also need to give careful consideration the impact on women (who are protected from sex discrimination and harassment under the Equality Act) of stating their male pronouns. Men have more of a responsibility than women to carefully consider this issue wrt stating their own pronouns because of the inherent power imbalance between the sexes.

I definitely think as a man, you've made the right decision in removing your pronouns as it can be really upsetting for women (and non-binary female people who don't identify as women) to see that. Some students will want you to add your pronouns, but for every person who does, you will potentially be offending hundreds more. Plus, in your field, it absolutely makes sense to think this through carefully (as you're obviously doing) as others will be looking to you as an expert in this stuff.

@LonginesPrime thanks for your reply.

Its rare I get involved in a thread and have my mind changed.

Where you write - " definitely think as a man, you've made the right decision in removing your pronouns as it can be really upsetting for women (and non-binary female people who don't identify as women) to see that. Some students will want you to add your pronouns, but for every person who does, you will potentially be offending hundreds more. Plus, in your field, it absolutely makes sense to think this through carefully (as you're obviously doing) as others will be looking to you as an expert in this stuff."

This makes perfect sense to me, and its something I will take further in 'informal' discussions with other male colleagues.

Interestingly , it's never been the female queer students insisting men use he/him, they only call on being allowed for themselves, it's always been 'well meaning' management (often male) trying to look dynamic and relevant.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Quite simply, someone stating pronouns is declaring they think the difference between men and women is due to differences in their mind rather than their body and in doing so are assuming I, as a woman, must have one of those woman-type minds.

I don’t care how well-meaning and open minded they intend to be, at the end of the day that is what they are actually saying. In being so keen to reject gender boxes for the body, they implicitly create gender boxes for the mind which IMO is far far worse.

So given the reality that having a female body in a sexist society has real consequences, and female people have been structurally disadvantaged exactly because they were assumed to have lesser minds than male, there is no way that will ever not be offensive to me, or deserving of my entirely rational anger.

Absolutely agree with pp - superb post, Blibbyblobby. Such a good point, so well articulated.

Agree, another great description of what I feel is happening.

Nice of him to add a flag so you know he is naive or dangerous.

I completely agree that telling others your pronouns is nothing more than pathetic. But unless his pronouns are (I/have/a/gun) there's no reason to suggest he's a danger.

Interestingly , it's never been the female queer students insisting men use he/him, they only call on being allowed for themselves, it's always been 'well meaning' management (often male) trying to look dynamic and relevant.

Yes, that's been my experience too - it feels so misguided, and I personally think these clumsy attempts at being good allies are doing an incredible amount of damage to the trans/non-binary community.

Another point you might want to mention if you ever end up discussing it with management is that the university is subject to the public sector equality duty and must foster good relations between groups with and without different protected characteristics - so men and women, trans and non-trans (either under gender reassignment or philosophical belief), etc.

It's just such a huge risk point for employers to be issuing instructions around stating pronouns, and as you say, they generally mean well and think they're doing the right thing, but they really haven't thought it through.

@Snoozer11

Nice of him to add a flag so you know he is naive or dangerous.

I completely agree that telling others your pronouns is nothing more than pathetic. But unless his pronouns are (I/have/a/gun) there's no reason to suggest he's a danger.

I assume "danger" in the sense of being harmful to work prospects rather than literally physically dangerous.

I assume "danger" in the sense of being harmful to work prospects rather than literally physically dangerous.

That’s how I understood it too.

@HelplesslyHoping

Having male pronouns are no different to having a male name. If anything I'd feel a little safer around him knowing he shares his pronouns so others feel more comfortable sharing theirs.

We've been told we have to add them to our email. I asked if I had to, was required to?

I first thought this thread was a wind up...Is there really nothing more important to focus on than pronouns? is that really people worry about these says?

Often staff are just told by HR/their boss to start using them and have no choice in the matter. I really can't see how this is about male 'dominance' or 'privilege'...

I work for a charities and the NHS and it is common for us to use pronouns. Seen as being inclusive nothing more...

@ElectraBlue

I first thought this thread was a wind up...Is there really nothing more important to focus on than pronouns? is that really people worry about these says?

Often staff are just told by HR/their boss to start using them and have no choice in the matter. I really can't see how this is about male 'dominance' or 'privilege'...

I work for a charities and the NHS and it is common for us to use pronouns. Seen as being inclusive nothing more...

I think warning people that their little demonstration of so-called "inclusion" is going back to the times when people believed men and women's brains worked differently is worth doing. Given how bad that made things for women, I think that is pretty important.

I also think blindly accepting an ideology that wants to undefine - literally remove the name for, voice of, entire concept of - female-bodied people as a political, social and legal group is funcking terrifying.

So yeah, I think it's worth explaining that very clearly. People should be very very clear what they are signing up for.

I don't focus on pronouns, no Electra. I posted on an Internet thread. I don't put them in my email, so you could argue that I focus on them less than other people who do.

This thread gives views on 1. Why in fact legally you do have a choice about using them if your employer asks you to and 2. Some possible reasons why something so 'minor' and 'unimportant' is being pushed so hard. I find that all very interesting and helpful.

@ElectraBlue

I first thought this thread was a wind up...Is there really nothing more important to focus on than pronouns? is that really people worry about these says?

Often staff are just told by HR/their boss to start using them and have no choice in the matter. I really can't see how this is about male 'dominance' or 'privilege'...

I work for a charities and the NHS and it is common for us to use pronouns. Seen as being inclusive nothing more...

"No choice in matter" is not in accordance with the Yogyakarta principles or employment law.

I use it as a red flag too. This person is not anyone I have anything in common with and don't want to engage with. At work, the only male doing it is indeed a massive knob. It's a personality signal for me. Either you're a passive dope just doing what you're told without and critical thought or doing any investigation of the issues yourself. Or you're a massive narcissistic prick. Either way, you're not for me.

@ElectraBlue

I first thought this thread was a wind up...Is there really nothing more important to focus on than pronouns? is that really people worry about these says?

Often staff are just told by HR/their boss to start using them and have no choice in the matter. I really can't see how this is about male 'dominance' or 'privilege'...

I work for a charities and the NHS and it is common for us to use pronouns. Seen as being inclusive nothing more...

Pronouns in emails are a public declaration of agreement with a belief system. A third party pronoun declaration is not about one's own biological sex but that everyone in society has a gender role, that each sex has a different gender role. Is that important when the recognition of sex is dismissed in favour of a gender role?

It also gives me the ability to control your speech, and to limit your ability to communicate your personal perceptions of reality.
If you are on a jury and the witness is using the opposite sex pronouns to everyone else, would that skew the testimony's value?

Is HR or a boss forcing a person to make a declaration about protected characteristics, gender reassignment, and/or sex, an acceptable work practice?
In the "First World" are women still disadvantaged just for being women?

Do you announce other PC's?
Is it standard to announce your marriage and civil partnership status?
Were women disadvantaged by the historical power inequality of that legal contract.
Did the contract change the legal and social standing of men and women in different ways?

How about a declaration for a pregnancy and maternity status?
Or your race?
The religion or belief system you do or don't follow?
How about your age, or if you do or don't have a disability?

How about your sexual orientation?
In the child protection charity sector is it 'dominance' or 'privilege' or just sexual harassment to bring and use sex accoutrement in work?

Is it nothing more than inclusive to instruct NHS staff to tell a woman that the patient with penis in the bed next to her is a woman?
Should the staff re-educate that Black woman to accepting White women on the ward? (HR choose racism as the teaching metric)

Is it been seen as being inclusive nothing more when Girl Guides dont inform the parents of children in their care if girls with penis are sharing accommodation with girls with vulva?

Often staff are just told by HR/their boss to start using them and have no choice in the matter.

I don't doubt that this is happening, but the employers doing this are wrong and are potentially breaching the Equality Act by forcing this on employees.

The practice indirectly discriminates against people who hold gender critical philosophical beliefs and often also constitutes harassment, and it shouldn't be happening. See the link to the Sex Matters pronouns guide upthread.

Employers are hugely ill-informed on this as Stonewall et al have advised HR teams that it's inclusive to state pronouns, but Stonewall never claimed to represent women and are obviously only seeing the gender ideology side, as that's the bit that's within their remit.

No-one is considering whether it's ok from a sex discrimination or feminist philosophical belief perspective, because, as usual in life and industry, women's needs have been overlooked.

Employers are at fault for unlawfully mandating discriminatory practices, and the government is at fault for not having issued clear guidance for employers on this.

Is there really nothing more important to focus on than pronouns? is that really people worry about these says?

Well, you know, you could just read the thread and the arguments put forward as to why this is indeed something to worry about, ElectraBlue - but I’m getting a strong sense that you haven’t actually done that, because you don’t actually want to.

You can do the fingers in the ears “la la la, I’m not listening” thing if you like, but it won’t make us go away. One of these days you will have to deal with the fact that there are a great many people who don’t think like you do, and who never will. And guess what, we’re entitled to a voice too.

Your golden era of #nodebate is coming to an end, and there’s nothing you can do about that. However many PA digs you post on MN.

Electra's an odd one to invoke on FWR.

I am taking notes to talk to my MD about it. All staff have been asked to add it to their email signatures and I don't want to.

That's a really good point ClaireCAIS

I don't want to say anything too identifying but let's just say I have a lot of sympathy for those with variations of sex development and hate how gender identity ideology is affecting them and how 'intersex' is brought into this whole debate by people who don't have a clue what it means.