Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

It is stereotypes

I wonder if they don't see them as stereotypes as they believe them ?

Pronouns : whiskey/vodka

It's hard to see what else they see them as.

Hoe long ago did women do head tilty, tee hee hee, swooning, subordination?

It's surreal.

If that's a woman, yes, I am a geezer. 🤣🤣

@bordermidgebite

I sort of understand it

But I don't buy it , I think it's the wrong way to try and solve a very real problem

You are probably male according to the theory ( if I remember your previous posts correctly which is tricky )

Yeah, that's where I am as well. (The sort -of-understanding I mean. Not the probably male. But to be fair, probably that as well)

I absolutely do believe that trans people experience what they say they do.

My problem is not that I don't believe their experiences, but that genderist explanations for those experiences all rely on me also experiencing what they say I do, and I just don't.

And the genderist position also means believing that that having a female body has no connection to the opportunities, risks and constraints we experience in society or to how others react to us, and that is just so at odds with even a cursory glance at how society actually works that I can only see it as a triumph of seeing what you want the world to be and not what it really is.

I don't AT ALL want to force trans people into lives they don't fit. I am certainly open to there being subtypes of human personalities we don't properly recognise yet that cross sex boundaries and have more relevance to ones personality than ones sex does - in fact I think that's probably a dead cert. I'd love for society to explore that more, but not by just handwaving away everything that comes with being female (or indeed male) in a sexist society.

I want to talk honestly and openly with trans identifying people like @ImFluidLikeWater and find common ground to build on, but for that to happen they have to hear and believe what I am saying and accept the gaps I'm worried about are as important to me as their gender identities are to them, not just expect me to hear and believe them then talk over me with their own beliefs.

@Blibbyblobby just wanted to say that I always find your posts on this subject to be considered, respectful, thought-provoking and eminently sensible. If you use Facebook, may I recommend you join The Gender Discourse Fight Club group (if you haven’t already)? It’s not a fight club, although it can be a bit of an echo chamber at times (on the rad fem side, more than the trans side), and I’ve found it valuable for reading discussions and points of views on both sides. I think your contributions would be valuable.

The assumption that everyone here is ‘cis’ is offensive because it assumes that we all have a gender identity - ‘misgendering’ us, in your terms. Most of us actively reject that concept and would say we just have a sex.

As for pronouns making life better for LGBT+ people, I’m a lesbian & several other women are too, and being pressured to state my pronouns does me no favours whatsoever. If you haven’t read the full thread I recommend having a look at https://filia.org.uk/latest-news/2021/12/1/should-you-declare-your-pronouns-a-simple-guidee^^ which sums it all up very clearly.^

This.

I'm not escaping being female. I explored my gender identity and found the one that makes me the most confident and comfortable.

So you don't have a problem with people correctly identifying your sex? Given how gender is different and all.

Fantastic posts @Chickenyhead

❤

With hindsight I should have left it with @Blibbyblobby

[quote ImFluidLikeWater]@ArtemesiaK Genderfluid means my gender identity changes. Sometimes I'm male, sometimes I'm female, sometimes I'm both, sometimes I'm neither. And I dress accordingly and use the pronouns I feel most comfortable with at the time.
Sam Smith is non-binary, and they use they/them pronouns. Same goes for other artists like Demi Lovato. Simple as that.[/quote]
"Male" and "female" are sexes. They don't change. You were female from the moment that the sperm with an 'X' chromosome won a swimming contest. You will remain female until the end of time.

You may however feel more or less masculine or feminine. These are genders, the stereotypes society holds about how men and women are expected to dress and behave.

Many women on this board have no wish to be pigeonholed and are happy to pick and choose clothes, jobs and hobbies based upon what suits them, rather than what society expects them to do. My cousin is no less a woman for restoring classic cars. A PE teacher I've met is no less a woman for firing steam engines in her spare time.

But with those expectations ingrained in society, many women experience discrimination in their working lives. Disadvantaged because the person at the other end saw that they were speaking to a woman and assumed that they were unable to do their job. So you can see why many women are reluctant to make their sex even more obvious.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

""Male" and "female" are sexes. They don't change. You were female from the moment that the sperm with an 'X' chromosome won a swimming contest. You will remain female until the end of time."

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

To say "until the end of time" about something like this is quite ridiculous.

Good one Rainbow

What else did you pull out of the Christmas Cracker?

@Leafstamp

Good one Rainbow

What else did you pull out of the Christmas Cracker?

Isn't this the gotcha known as 'Trigger's Broom'?

Yes, that’s the one @RepentMotherfucker!

@RainbowRidge66

""Male" and "female" are sexes. They don't change. You were female from the moment that the sperm with an 'X' chromosome won a swimming contest. You will remain female until the end of time."

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

To say "until the end of time" about something like this is quite ridiculous.

If pigs could fly...

OP I am totally with you in you original post. It feels like a man stamping their authority by virtue of being a man. Remember that BCAP guide that had women as submissive (apart from aggressive northern women) and men as leaders?

I don't get you. I haven't had one from a UK based firm but deal with USA a lot and they seem to put this at the bottom of their emails. I mostly deal with female staff so it's usually (her/she) that they put after the name. While I may eye roll a bit I don't find it oppressive when it's from a (he/him). I just think that a tiny minority have successfully pushed their agenda to make this the norm. Haven't had one that says (they/them) yet.

@RainbowRidge66

""Male" and "female" are sexes. They don't change. You were female from the moment that the sperm with an 'X' chromosome won a swimming contest. You will remain female until the end of time."

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

To say "until the end of time" about something like this is quite ridiculous.

Your DNA will still have that pair of X chromosomes (XY for men) for long after you are six feet under.

@RainbowRidge66

""Male" and "female" are sexes. They don't change. You were female from the moment that the sperm with an 'X' chromosome won a swimming contest. You will remain female until the end of time."

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

To say "until the end of time" about something like this is quite ridiculous.

The ridiculous part is your own post.

I think Rainbow wants to discuss the immaterial soul. In which case s/he needs to go back to before Descartes and chat to people who were still kicking that idea about.

1625 oughta do it?

@maofteens

I don't get you. I haven't had one from a UK based firm but deal with USA a lot and they seem to put this at the bottom of their emails. I mostly deal with female staff so it's usually (her/she) that they put after the name. While I may eye roll a bit I don't find it oppressive when it's from a (he/him). I just think that a tiny minority have successfully pushed their agenda to make this the norm. Haven't had one that says (they/them) yet.

I haven't received any.

@DaddyPhD

As someone who teaches in a university, this is VERY NORMAL, many undergrads get very angry if you call them she as they see themselves as non-binary (They/Them) And it's just an observation as this seems more popular with biological female students, but we have a fair few biological male students who do not want he/him.

I was directed to put (He/Him) in my Zoom profile and work emails, simply because the whole thing is getting very tricky, so it sets an all inclusive field ( gender wise)

I have my picture in Outlook, a bloke with a beard. Nothing to do with male dominance, in fact the opposite as I see it. More to do with those who do not want to be labelled She or He but They.

I’m female but totally agree with your post, as someone who works in a university.

Increasingly we see people who don’t identify with the sex they were identified as at birth and the pronouns is a way of supporting them to start the conversation.

I wouldn’t see a photo of a male or someone using male pronouns as a sign of dominance, nor my own female appearance/ pronouns as an act of submission. It seems very strange to me that this would be the first assumption.

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

I can't quite believe I just read that. Sure, the idea could have a place in a philosophical debate. But that's where it ends. In the real word, the concept is just bollocks.

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Really now? What if we, say, had the technology to replace all the components of one's body to the point there's no physical difference from the other?

I can't quite believe I just read that. Sure, the idea could have a place in a philosophical debate. But that's where it ends. In the real word, the concept is just bollocks.

The philosophical debate was over by the mid 1600s I think?

The philosophical debate was over by the mid 1600s I think?

Well people do still participate in it, particularly if they are studying philosophy. Which is fine and an interesting idea to some. It doesn't mean the idea has any meaning in the real world.

@ineedsun
Sexed pronouns deliver information her/she for female, him/he for males, they for unknown sex.
The demand to use sexed pronouns as feelings pronouns provide the information that the individual either has a problem with their body and genitalia or with their perceived gender role in society.
Irrespective of how they personally feel they are still one of two sexes. So what is the conversation they want to start?

Women are still socially disadvantaged by their reproductive role not just their gender role of "carer".
Reasonable accomadation in the workplace for the two sexes attempt to level this but in output terms can disadvantage the male workforce.
In your university how many of the senior posts are filled with women who have families and how many are filled by men in the same situation.
How many part-time roles are occupied by men with caring responsible's against the number of women.
How are two candidates assessed when both are excellent fits with the exact same academic achievement, exact same level of experience but one has a career gap?