Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

@ArtemesiaK No its not "clothes mainly", I feel genuinely uncomfortable wearing clothes that don't match with how I feel, and when people use the wrong pronouns. I feel female? I put on skinny jeans and a t-shirt. I feel male? I bind and wear thick jeans and a hoodie. I feel neither? Usually I still bind and wear a hoodie, but sometimes I wear a sweater instead. My hair is short and beanies are my best friends :)
To say that just actions like putting up shelves or baking cakes means you might be genderfluid is utterly ridiculous and quite offensive honestly. But I'm willing to forgive your ignorance bc hey, you don't know. I know changing pronouns everyday can be tricky for others, hence why my default is they/them to make it easier and less frustrating for everyone's sake.
And yes, Sam Smith is non-binary. Sam Smith uses they/them pronouns because they are non-binary, please be respectful of their pronouns and not using he/him deliberately.

I'm a very feminine and obviously a woman and although 60 I have long blond hair and don't look remotely like a man.
I've decided if this comes up at work I'm going to put he/him and let them get on with the confusion, I'll say I prefer not to discuss my gender if asked.
Let them work out the stupidity - nobody would dare question it.

@ImFluidLikeWater

You identify with a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth?

How will I know? I mean, I would say I am a woman but only because that is the name I learned for the type of body I have. But if, as you tell me, women can have any type of body then I can't use that as a reason.

So how do I know if I'm cis or not? What conmon characteristics should I be looking out for to tell me I'm a woman?

It was quite amusing when one colleague (A) could only say the male version of my name

The other colleague in the team could not understand why I never corrected him

But A was also the liaison with many other teams , it was beneficial to let the mis-sexing pass

@ArtemesiaK

"Eh?" addressed to mango....

What is your question?

I had been communicating remotely with Sam.

I had an issue with documents they sent. I was in the office trying to speak to their coworker about our correspondence.

And despite Sam using a profile picture, I had no idea if Sam was male or female. So I tried to be very careful and kept using first name.

Pronouns aren't just for non-binary people. They work for people with ambiguous names and faces. They work for foreign names people aren't familiar with- hence why they took off in universities.

The point about John with his male name and beard using them in emails is that it normalises so others do it too.

Is that more clear?

So you think you choose your clothes because you are feeling female or male?

How about you chose clothes because you like them and they suit your mood on that day ?

You do realise that clothes are not a reliable indicator of sex , with the clothes people see as female ( tight jeans I think you mentioned ) being male at other times and places ( zukko )

So you assume Sam cares two hoots about the pronoun ?

But Sam may be like many of us , insulted if you think pronoun matters

@Nomoreusernames1244

What *@Blibbyblobby* said.

I may start using it/its, and add also that offence will be taken to any stray or incorrectly used apostrophes. I wonder how many people would actually have the courage to refer to me as “it”.

Nearly spat out my wine laughing at this !!

@bordermidgebite

So you assume Sam cares two hoots about the pronoun ?

But Sam may be like many of us , insulted if you think pronoun matters

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I don't know many women who appreciate being mistaken for a man. And vice versa.

For goodness sake, people are trying their best here.

@bordermidgebite

So you think you choose your clothes because you are feeling female or male?

How about you chose clothes because you like them and they suit your mood on that day ?

You do realise that clothes are not a reliable indicator of sex , with the clothes people see as female ( tight jeans I think you mentioned ) being male at other times and places ( zukko )

I choose clothes because of how they fit my physical body. Doesn't everyone?

I think it's good that a supporter of transgenderism or whatever it's called has at last engaged us in a conversation, even if it makes little sense...

@ArtemesiaK

I think it's good that a supporter of transgenderism or whatever it's called has at last engaged us in a conversation, even if it makes little sense...

I totally agree.

People may be trying thier best

that best isn't good enough. Forcing people to accept gender and/of reveal sex is wrong and promotes stereotypes

It's the wrong thing to do. I think it's best if people drop the pronoun nonsense

Or make everyone "they "

I wasn't arguing that Sam should put them in. What I'm saying is this is an example of when they are helpful.

If people here are so rigid in their beliefs they can't try to see a practical example, it is really not worth having a conversation.

I am GC and have a very typical name. I don't use pronouns. Don't mind when/ if people do. But there are times it is helpful when you don't know how to refer to people in a long complicated transaction.

No I think people chose clothes that fit their body and they like or can afford

Although I will admit that I have also chosen clothes to fit expectations- wearing dress to weddings or interviews for example

It's only helpful if Sam feels strongly about what pronouns should be used or you want to know because it affects your behaviour

@ImFluidLikeWater

I see.

People have been removed from this site for using Cis, when asked not to.

The actual definition of Cis applies to your gender. Hence IF an individual, with human rights to do so, says to you:

'I do not believe in gender identity, cis is a slur'

then you have to accept that they do not have a gender identity and that they (and MANY others) consider Cis to be a slur.

As a brief explanation, although I hold no desire to enter an ideological discussion about it, the use of Cis before woman, implies that I am a subset of women and that transwomen are equally women. As I do not believe in gender and human beings cannot factually change sex, this is objectively untrue in relation to my beliefs.

A woman is an adult human female, as defined legally. Woman is one of the 2 human sexes, as commonly understood and scientifically proven, through objective fact.

The existence of 2 human sexes, male (XY penis) and woman (XX vagina) have been known of throughout the 6 million years of human history. No other sex has ever existed in humans or mammals.

These are my beliefs.

Your beliefs in gender rely upon subjective emotional feelings in someone's head. It cannot be tested for, measured or verified medically. These will never be my beliefs.

You suggest we should all be kind to trans people, by affirming their pronouns etc. You suggest how uncomfortable they are etc. Emotional blackmail to be kind.

Let me make clear to you, that your beliefs equally, make me extremely uncomfortable.

You could consider my feelings by not expecting special treatment compared to others. Not expecting speech and the meaning of language be adulterated to suit your personal needs.

Respect is a two way street.

@Blibbyblobby I'll take from the feelings I experienced. I was extremely depressed and uncomfortable with my body. I hated mirrors or any reflective surfaces. Most days I preferred wearing loose clothing. I thought there was something wrong with me. Hearing me being referred to as "daughter" or "sister" made me uncomfortable in a way that's hard to describe. I always wanted my breasts to be smaller and less noticeable. Some days I'd be fine, but most days I wasn't.
If you feel comfortable in your body all the time, if you don't feel like your body should be more masculine or androgynous, if you think the sex you were assigned at birth(male or female) then good for you :)

@DaddyPhD
Er, context. my qualifications were in response to a direct accusation "You have no awareness or concern for the effect it has on women who see the issues and are affected by gender ideology

You don’t have awareness of the effect it has on women, you’re a bloke!

I, and many women on here, have repeatedly stated that we consider the word 'cis' to be insulting and a slur. Please do not call me that. How dare you preach about people using pronouns to make other people feel comfortable (ridiculous, anyone with that fragile mental health should seek professional help) but continue to insult women who have repeatedly said they find the term 'cis' offensive.

Hi fluid

Are you me?

I have learnt however that my body is what it is
And that it doesn't affect who I am and what I can do
It does affect what some people think I am
Those people don't deserve respect
I also know that part of the reason I hated my body and being seen as female is because of those stereotype believing people snd how they hurt me

I hate my body by the way. I'm short, with large breast and nothing fits properly. I have been sexually objectified all my life and assaulted on a number of occasions on the back of it. That doesn't stop me being female or a woman or a sister or a mother! I have no gender-identity and think gender stereotypes are harmful and regressive, but I'm still female and a woman. You sound self-absorbed and self-obsessed.

I don't see it ( gender fluid identity) as self absorbed

I do actually see it as a logical interpretation of facts .. if you are surrounded by people who enforce gender binaries abs you don't fit neatly ....

I just don't think it's helpful , I think it's the gender binaries and gender enforcement that is wrong

That's how most women feel. Gender stereotypes are damaging, and we should be trying to get rid of them so that everyone, male or female (which can't be changed), is free to be themselves. Clothes, sexuality all the rest of it is personality.

"So you think you choose your clothes because you are feeling female or male?"
@bordermidgebite
I don't THINK, I DO pick clothes based on how masculine/feminine/androgynous I feel. There's no debate, that is how I dress. The weather does not matter to me, if I'm feeling masculine I will bind and wear a hoodie, fuck the heat. Clothes may not be a "good indicator of sex" to you, but it makes me feel more comfortable with my identity and that's what's important, not the opinions of outsiders.
I'm sorry, you're calling me a "supporter of transgenderism"? That's implying I'm the only trans supporter here... That's it! Ah, thank you for reminding me I'm surrounded by transphobes here, I forgot for a second :)