Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

Some nice people in my organisation have pronouns in their bios so I don't think it's always for nefarious purposes. They just haven't thought it through, it's something HR is prompting us to do and they do it unquestioningly. They've heard it's good to be an 'ally'.

I do think less of them though and question their intelligence.

Glad to be of help, Chilver!

I think this is something we really need to drill down on.

The reason that pronouns are intrinsically an ideological statement and never neutral or “just information” is that by saying it needs to be specified that an obviously male person wants to be seen as male, or an obviously female person wants to be seen as female, you are implicitly endorsing the idea that it would be or is equally legitimate for an obviously male person to be seen as female (and of course vice versa, though clearly the dynamics are not symmetrical).

By logical extension you are therefore endorsing the right of (obviously) male people to access single sex spaces and services formerly reserved for women. You are affirming that gender identity trumps sex in those situations where there is separate provision for men and women. You are supporting the ideology that demands male access to places where women are vulnerable, and male access to provisions set aside for women to redress the disadvantage we have historically faced and still do.

This is how advertising your pronouns in any way is contributing to the dismantling of women’s sex-based rights. It is at root legitimising the idea that some male people should rightfully be seen and treated as if they were female.

Which is exactly why TRAs are so keen on them and why “training” outfits have lobbied so hard to get every organisation they can adopting the practice.

"Hi I'm Dave I'm a man. Definitely a man" you're signalling your position on the hierarchy.

"Hi I'm Dawn, I'm a woman" likewise signalling your position.

Are you saying it has been subverted from signalling support for trans people? because that is how I have always understood it and I have never interpreted it as a gender hierarchy thing.

And the male work contact I know who does this has a genuinely confusing name. Although it's clear enough that he's a man when you see him in person.

I am not trying to be difficult I really want to understand this because I see it being used increasingly for both men and women in my work network.

Do you work in higher education? I can assure you adding (he/him) was not my decision, I was TOLD to add it to zoom signatures for seminar, lecture business by my highers, if you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

No, I work in law and I don't believe you were under a contractual obligation to state your pronouns as that would be a breach of the Equality Act 2010 on the part of your employer.

You chose to state your pronouns and would have been protected by the law had you declined. If your employer framed this request as a mandatory instruction and failed to explain its context or your right to decline, then they are also potentially breaching their duty to you as an employer.

Obviously, since you were happy to comply anyway, none of this is directly relevant to you. But i do wonder how many of your colleagues feel under pressure to state their pronouns under the false belief that they're contractually obliged to do so.

Furthermore, your employer is potentially harassing your female colleagues by forcing you to remind them that you are a man at every turn, and the practice is also potentially indirect discrimination as women are adversely affected by everyone adding their pronouns to a far greater degree than man are, because the playing field is not equal.

Er, context. my qualifications were in response to a direct accusation "You have no awareness or concern for the effect it has on women who see the issues and are affected by gender ideology."

I simply put my qualifications to show I in fact do have a modicum of awareness. I have no 'argument' or 'agenda', as you see it.

If you need to state your qualifications to prove that you have more awareness about how offensive your comments are to women than your comments actually suggest, can you see how it's likely that you weren't displaying your knowledge of such awareness effectively on this thread?

I didn't accuse you of having any sort of agenda - my take on it was that this is your academic area and so OP's question interests you, you have direct experience of the issue of being a male who states his pronouns (which I'm grateful that you shared), and you inadvertently made some comments that came across as insensitive and which appeared to be dismissing the experience of women. I took this to be because of your own blind spot as a result of your being male and never having been in the specific situation of experiencing misogyny directly.

he just sees it as being more supportive. He work for a large company on the Stonewall index and has attended 'ally' training or whatever it is

And there we have it.

Stonewall is a fucking poison.

I've already removed it from Outlook email, it was the specifically requested for Zoom presentation I was doing. I do intend to discreetly remove it

Glad to hear that

@Gncq

Announcing pronouns especially when you're not asked and in a work environment is a political statement. One that says "I am a fully initiated gender ideologist".

It's right to be concerned both by this individual and what else is going on in the work environment, when we all know what problems come along with the ideology.

And what will come next now that so many have submitted to Stonewall's will? Will it be sacking for those who don't use pronouns? Will it be gender neutral facilities whether you want them or not? Will they comb through your social media looking for wrong think? Why on earth are companies and employers so willing to surrender to this bizarre ideology?

@Beckert

I've had a couple of those recently. It's quite helpful as they are signalling what type of person I am dealing with and I can adopt my approach and response to them accordingly. I didn't need to wait to find out.

I've found the same on dating apps. Seeing pronouns on a profile helps me filter out the tedious profiles easily.

@Tulipomania

"Hi I'm Dave I'm a man. Definitely a man" you're signalling your position on the hierarchy.

"Hi I'm Dawn, I'm a woman" likewise signalling your position.

Are you saying it has been subverted from signalling support for trans people? because that is how I have always understood it and I have never interpreted it as a gender hierarchy thing.

And the male work contact I know who does this has a genuinely confusing name. Although it's clear enough that he's a man when you see him in person.

I am not trying to be difficult I really want to understand this because I see it being used increasingly for both men and women in my work network.

It's a basic statement.

Humans use sex based words to convey additional information.
She = female sex.
He = male sex.
They (singular ) = sex currently unknown.
It = object without a sex.

First name = personal identifier.

Family name = current bloodline or the future bloodline of your family group.

Title = agency role within organisation with authority level.

Business name = its a contracting legal entity which is recognised as having rights and obligations.

So the additional information provided
He/him =
I have a penis and I like my penis.
Or
I have a vulva and I do not like my vulva.

She/her =
I have a vulva and I like my vulva.
Or
I have a penis and I do not like my penis.

I’ve seen far more women using pronouns in the sign off then men actually.

As long as it’s not compulsory, I don’t mind others sharing theirs if it’s important for them. I don’t feel my gender has anything to do with anyone else! I’ll fill out my sex on official forms etc as it’s important from a data/policy-forming point of view. I don’t think gender has any importance, personally.

Are you saying it has been subverted from signalling support for trans people? because that is how I have always understood it and I have never interpreted it as a gender hierarchy thing.

For a start, it’s not really about signalling support for trans people but for trans activist ideology, which makes it a partisan political statement and as such completely inappropriate.

But anyway - it’s not that it’s been subverted as such, it’s just that the world we live in is still deeply misogynistic and sexist, there is still a very clear gender (or rather, sex) hierarchy in which men (males) have the dominant role and women (females) have the subordinate role.

It’s not what any of us on here wants, it’s not a desirable situation but the reality of society is such that it is the case and we have to live in and deal with the real world.

Men still get treated better and with more respect than women. Men are still deferred to more than women. Men are attributed with greater levels of expertise and knowledge than women. This has been shown when people have experimented by adopting opposite sex names and sending emails in those names instead of their actual ones: the responses they got differed hugely depending on whether clients thought they were dealing with a woman or a man.

This is a fact of life. So within this context, anything that demands that women call yet more attention to the fact they’re female will only exacerbate this effect.

And given that the ideology which this promotes is inherently misogynistic, people announcing their allegiance to it again just reinforces misogyny and makes the world a more hostile place for women.

@LonginesPrime

Do you work in higher education? I can assure you adding (he/him) was not my decision, I was TOLD to add it to zoom signatures for seminar, lecture business by my highers, if you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

No, I work in law and I don't believe you were under a contractual obligation to state your pronouns as that would be a breach of the Equality Act 2010 on the part of your employer.

You chose to state your pronouns and would have been protected by the law had you declined. If your employer framed this request as a mandatory instruction and failed to explain its context or your right to decline, then they are also potentially breaching their duty to you as an employer.

Obviously, since you were happy to comply anyway, none of this is directly relevant to you. But i do wonder how many of your colleagues feel under pressure to state their pronouns under the false belief that they're contractually obliged to do so.

Furthermore, your employer is potentially harassing your female colleagues by forcing you to remind them that you are a man at every turn, and the practice is also potentially indirect discrimination as women are adversely affected by everyone adding their pronouns to a far greater degree than man are, because the playing field is not equal.

Er, context. my qualifications were in response to a direct accusation "You have no awareness or concern for the effect it has on women who see the issues and are affected by gender ideology."

I simply put my qualifications to show I in fact do have a modicum of awareness. I have no 'argument' or 'agenda', as you see it.

If you need to state your qualifications to prove that you have more awareness about how offensive your comments are to women than your comments actually suggest, can you see how it's likely that you weren't displaying your knowledge of such awareness effectively on this thread?

I didn't accuse you of having any sort of agenda - my take on it was that this is your academic area and so OP's question interests you, you have direct experience of the issue of being a male who states his pronouns (which I'm grateful that you shared), and you inadvertently made some comments that came across as insensitive and which appeared to be dismissing the experience of women. I took this to be because of your own blind spot as a result of your being male and never having been in the specific situation of experiencing misogyny directly.

@LonginesPrime

I'd be interested on your take on the large number of students (mostly biologically female) who insist (i.e would report me) if I don't refer to them as they and identify as non-binary. That's the biggest driver here for people using pronouns. A student led push to add pronouns changes in the internal version of zoom for the university used the link to explain to oldies like me lgbtlifecenter.org/pronouns/#columns-1

In my inarticulate way this what led me and other male colleagues to add (he/him) something I've now already removed from email and will take from my zoom, especially as we go face to face for most classes nowadays.

Is the case, ONLY LGBT non-binary should update pronouns to remind the hetro majority they are uncomfortable with he/she??

I ask with all genuineness and not trying to score points or anything, I genuinely need to think about this a lot more than I have in the past.

@DaddyPhD

The change at University at least here- seems in part to a very vocal young movement who reject gender or sexual orientation classification

Playing around with pronouns does precisely nothing to change societal gender-based expectations or stereotyping. Rather than showing that a woman or man can break the classifications by being gender non-conforming within their sex, they pretend (chiefly to themselves) that they are challenging stereotypes by playing silly-buggers with the English language (or going a step further also playing silly-buggers with biological reality)..

Not your fault clearly but I despair of the superficiality of the approach.

[quote 3timeslucky]@DaddyPhD

The change at University at least here- seems in part to a very vocal young movement who reject gender or sexual orientation classification

Playing around with pronouns does precisely nothing to change societal gender-based expectations or stereotyping. Rather than showing that a woman or man can break the classifications by being gender non-conforming within their sex, they pretend (chiefly to themselves) that they are challenging stereotypes by playing silly-buggers with the English language (or going a step further also playing silly-buggers with biological reality)..

Not your fault clearly but I despair of the superficiality of the approach.[/quote]
I can see where these kids are coming from, I wanted to smash things up and change the order when I was a student in the 90's, for them coupled with climate change, it feels almost life and death important.

Maybe the message has been subverted, don't use he/she if you don't believe them. The more I think about a 40 something year old balding, bearded Dad using he/him on zoom and email, the more utterly stupid I feel!!!

Not everything is a conspiracy. He accepts that some people want others to use pronouns which seem counterintuitive, believes that those people are marginalised, is an "ally", and is doing something which is increasingly common. You may not accept that, may not believe that and may not like "allies". But it's possible that he isn't doing it too piss you off. And you're going to be getting irrationally angry a lot if this happens whenever you see a pronoun announcement.

DaddyPhD would you clarify something for me? Were you told to put your pronouns in your zoom name by your boss, or were you bullied into doing it by the students?

Good to see you taking on board what a lot of women feel about this. It does appear you thought you were being kind and inclusive, but now you are aware there's a rather sinister side to the bullying monitoring compliance with an ideology that disadvantages women. Your young female students will realise it in time when they come up against the sexism which is rife in the 'real' world of work, away from academia.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Because you know that being male means privilege so he’s flaunting his privilege. It’s an act of dominance. If it was a woman putting she/her they would be signalling submission so of course you would react differently.

For a man to put pronouns in the workplace they either need to not know about the evidence that constantly reinforces both discrimination and stereotype threat, or they need to know but not care.

Good grief. 🙄 I’m not a fan of pronouns in email signatures and would never do it, but quite a few in my company do, and the thought that they are ‘signalling their dominance/submission’ is laughable.

Never heard of the unconscious, then, UnderTheSky?

The more I think about a 40 something year old balding, bearded Dad using he/him on zoom and email, the more utterly stupid I feel!!!

Thank you for saying this, DaddyPhD, that’s given me a chuckle

@Masdintle

DaddyPhD would you clarify something for me? Were you told to put your pronouns in your zoom name by your boss, or were you bullied into doing it by the students?

Good to see you taking on board what a lot of women feel about this. It does appear you thought you were being kind and inclusive, but now you are aware there's a rather sinister side to the bullying monitoring compliance with an ideology that disadvantages women. Your young female students will realise it in time when they come up against the sexism which is rife in the 'real' world of work, away from academia.

@masdintle

I was told by my highers to include it. It was said like an order, and legally I know I could have said no, but it was done like 'in the spirit of things' . I was asked for a specific event that had a large zoom audience.

It does feel like the whole thing is being driven by student politics , but it is presented as a worthwhile LGBT issue and what's been discussed here is not very vocal, at least where I work. No excuse for not looking into the wider feminist issue of course.....

Most of this is unsayable in academia these days.

So much for higher “education”.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Never heard of the unconscious, then, UnderTheSky?

I have, yes, @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark. I just don’t agree that indicating pronouns is signalling dominance or submission, whether deliberately or subconsciously.

@MurielSpriggs

Not everything is a conspiracy. He accepts that some people want others to use pronouns which seem counterintuitive, believes that those people are marginalised, is an "ally", and is doing something which is increasingly common. You may not accept that, may not believe that and may not like "allies". But it's possible that he isn't doing it too piss you off. And you're going to be getting irrationally angry a lot if this happens whenever you see a pronoun announcement.

I never ascribe to conspiracy what can be attributed to well-meaning failure to think things through.

Quite simply, someone stating pronouns is declaring they think the difference between men and women is due to differences in their mind rather than their body and in doing so are assuming I, as a woman, must have one of those woman-type minds.

I don’t care how well-meaning and open minded they intend to be, at the end of the day that is what they are actually saying. In being so keen to reject gender boxes for the body, they implicitly create gender boxes for the mind which IMO is far far worse.

So given the reality that having a female body in a sexist society has real consequences, and female people have been structurally disadvantaged exactly because they were assumed to have lesser minds than male, there is no way that will ever not be offensive to me, or deserving of my entirely rational anger.

Blibbyblobby- I hope you don't mind, but I took a screenshot of your most recent post and will keep it handy if I'm ever asked to include my pronouns. It sums things up perfectly.