Pronouns in an email display name has made me...

[Chilver]

..irrationally angry. I have just received an email from someone in HR and the email in my inbox shows as 'surname (he/him), first name (department)'. Their accompanying photo (only seen by internal people) is visibly male.

It has made me irrationally angry but I'm not entirely sure why. I feel that the display name saying '(he/him)' is just forcing male oppression onto me; that its telling me to 'be kind'; that's its telling me to 'know my place; and that place is behind men in all circumstances'; I'm just.... angry.

I've tried to think how I would feel if it was 'she/her' was displayed and whether that would change my feelings - it probably would I think but again, not sure why.

Any clever Mumsnetters who can help me understand my own feelings about why I feel so angry about this?

I am in a position where I can, gently, comment on this at the right time to another senior member of HR but I feel I need my feelings in check and my reasonings clear.

I believe pronoun declaration goes against the Yogyakarta principles around trans inclusion so I’d be out woking then with that

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

How is it "signalling dominance" or "submission"?

I corrected the comment to say you can't tell if a person is obeying just to stay out of trouble, or is signalling dominance (if male) or submission (if female), or is a genderist believer.

Commenters have noted that colleagues they haven't met in person treat them differently depending whether they think they're emailing a man or a woman.

Nope, sorry- it's not signalling anything to me whether done by a man or a woman beyond "vacuous prat - but take care when dealing with them"

Companies cannot compel you to do this. It would be religion or belief discrimination to make it mandatory. In addition to increasing sex discrimination. It's not kind to anyone.

OP your explanation that it is in his actual email name helps explain why it upsets you - that is really in the face. If it’s in the name row then it’s part of his name surely. Could you be naughty and address him as though you understand that to be his full name, so

Dear Dave Bennett (he/his)

And

Dave Bennett (he/his) wanted to ask if we could…

Sometimes total compliance is the best way of ridiculing someone!

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

OP your explanation that it is in his actual email name helps explain why it upsets you - that is really in the face. If it’s in the name row then it’s part of his name surely. Could you be naughty and address him as though you understand that to be his full name, so

Dear Dave Bennett (he/his)

And

Dave Bennett (he/his) wanted to ask if we could…

Sometimes total compliance is the best way of ridiculing someone!

Yes. Surely he is 'Gordon Bennet (he/his)', though?

Completely agree, that's why I said, 'as I see it'. I would venture I have an awareness as someone with a PhD in Humanities and studied gender and feminism at advance degree level, but I won't argue your point, I'm a straight man, what do I know.

No-one needs to know your qualifications - you chose to state them when no-one had asked. Stating your qualifications on an anonymous forum to pull rank and then trying to appear self-effacing by feigning humility is exactly the kind of dick-swinging behaviour many women have referred to above.

The only reason you stated your qualifications was to add weight to your flimsy argument. If your words stood up to scrutiny, you wouldn't have needed to mention the fact that you have higher status in the real world at all.

I was simply pointing out if you do receive an email from a man with (he/him) the reason could be the same as me, his boss told him to do it.

Well, as others have pointed out, if you as a male send an email stating your male pronouns, the reason people think you're a dick could be the fact the you've chosen to do this without considering the impact of your behaviour on women.

And it's bollocks that there are all these poor men out there adding their male pronouns because their boss is forcing them to - you may have been invited to state your pronouns but you made the conscious choice to do so, so it's disingenuous to make out that it was your boss's decision and not yours.

I've been in the workplace now for many years so can state that about 299 times out of 300 this will be either well-meaning or conformist.

However, it does indeed feel like a dominance display when it reaches you. What it indicates is that nothing about someone's presentation can tell you what pronouns to use for them,.that pronouns are a completely arbitrary personal choice with no link to anything else that you can observe. But that's not how language works. Third person pronouns aren't meant to be a private password that only the person being talked about can grant you the privilege of using about them. They are a sign between two or more people of commonly understood indicators, not requiring special conversations or arrangements. To gibe someone your pronouns is to state that you are so fucking important, such a rule-breaking rebel, that you are able to impose arbitrary rules on other people. It is VERY Silicon Valley, very neoliberal, ferociously individualist and anticollective.

@Blibbyblobby I'm choosing my battles on this. His eyes are slowly opening to what's going on and he will reach his own conclusions on pronouns as part of that.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo thanks but no I'm not going to do that. He's my husband, not someone I'm looking to pick a fight with. He's much more likely to come around to understanding with the stuff that's happening in the news around stonewall, the nolan podcasts etc, than if i start haranguing him for soemthing he believes he is doing in good faith.

I was really just posting about him to say that for some people especially men it's an easy thing to do that requires little thought - it doesn't make them particularly rabid or ideological.

@LonginesPrime

Completely agree, that's why I said, 'as I see it'. I would venture I have an awareness as someone with a PhD in Humanities and studied gender and feminism at advance degree level, but I won't argue your point, I'm a straight man, what do I know.

No-one needs to know your qualifications - you chose to state them when no-one had asked. Stating your qualifications on an anonymous forum to pull rank and then trying to appear self-effacing by feigning humility is exactly the kind of dick-swinging behaviour many women have referred to above.

The only reason you stated your qualifications was to add weight to your flimsy argument. If your words stood up to scrutiny, you wouldn't have needed to mention the fact that you have higher status in the real world at all.

I was simply pointing out if you do receive an email from a man with (he/him) the reason could be the same as me, his boss told him to do it.

Well, as others have pointed out, if you as a male send an email stating your male pronouns, the reason people think you're a dick could be the fact the you've chosen to do this without considering the impact of your behaviour on women.

And it's bollocks that there are all these poor men out there adding their male pronouns because their boss is forcing them to - you may have been invited to state your pronouns but you made the conscious choice to do so, so it's disingenuous to make out that it was your boss's decision and not yours.

"No-one needs to know your qualifications - you chose to state them when no-one had asked"

Er, context. my qualifications were in response to a direct accusation "You have no awareness or concern for the effect it has on women who see the issues and are affected by gender ideology."

I simply put my qualifications to show I in fact do have a modicum of awareness. I have no 'argument' or 'agenda', as you see it.

"And it's bollocks that there are all these poor men out there adding their male pronouns because their boss is forcing them to"

Very well might be, I was commenting on my own situation, not defending men who use (he/him)

Do you work in higher education? I can assure you adding (he/him) was not my decision, I was TOLD to add it to zoom signatures for seminar, lecture business by my highers, if you choose to believe that or not is up to you.

And yet, when told to put pronouns in your details, despite all your awareness and expertise in this area, you chose to go along with it. Rather than stick your head above the parapet and point out that it cannot be compulsory to insist on people specifying pronouns at work. For several reasons, many of which are due to women's concerns.

@AssassinatedBeauty

And yet, when told to put pronouns in your details, despite all your awareness and expertise in this area, you chose to go along with it. Rather than stick your head above the parapet and point out that it cannot be compulsory to insist on people specifying pronouns at work. For several reasons, many of which are due to women's concerns.

Guilty as charged.

Like my comment earlier about white allies for black people, I'll be the first to admit I added (he/him) it thinking I was doing the 'right thing' without actually thinking too deeply about it at all, ( as a straight male) and the impact this has with women, as you correctly raise.

I satisfied myself I was complying with the young women in my classes who tell me they are non binary queer and insist I refer to them as They / Them. And failed to join the dots.

Joining the dots, creating a workplace where everyone has email pronouns- in a workplace where women are still discriminated against in and out of the office, the she/her pronouns experience discrimination as a result of their sex.

So I'll put my hands up that you have a valid point and I should have been better. It's a feeble excuse, but I have children, and I'm an academic in a public research university that like all universities are struggling to cope with budget and funding . Weak excuse I know, but as someone here put it so eloquently, straight men have no skin in this game...

Daddy, if you want to help, do what my DH did. Say that you are extremely uncomfortable with some people having to “out” themselves before they are ready and possibly mutter something in confidence about how you may be considering your own identity.

DH only got pushback from one trans friendly colleague who knows him extremely well and sarcastically asked him if that really was how he felt.

DH maintained, innocently that it is very important that people can come out only when they are ready and that he wanted to have an inclusive work place where it was ok both to display pronouns (if ready) and wait (if still pondering). There was nothing the colleague could do.

@Gncq

Announcing pronouns especially when you're not asked and in a work environment is a political statement. One that says "I am a fully initiated gender ideologist".

It's right to be concerned both by this individual and what else is going on in the work environment, when we all know what problems come along with the ideology.

Exactly.

Although tbf some people doing this genuinely don’t realise this. Some of them really have just fallen for the whole “it’s inclusive” bollocks, and have just done as instructed by their orgs, without looking into it too deeply, without being aware of the underlying arguments and issues around it.

Strange that anyone could be that unaware these days given the media focus on it all, but I guess some people just have busy lives.

Others, of course, are making a conscious choice to display their allegiance to the party line.

And whether it’s a conscious choice or not, it’s still a partisan political statement and as such has no place in professional interactions with the general public or colleagues, no more than someone’s stance on Brexit or abortion should be displayed in their email signature.

That’s why it gives me the rage. When it’s from a man, doubly so as it instantly tells me he is in favour of dismantling women’s sex-based rights and therefore as much of a misogynist in his own way as a bog standard overt MRA.

I think what really made me react to it was the use in the display name, not just their email signature, which I would have had to open the email to see- having it in the display name so it shows in my Inbox summary feels unnecessarily forceful.

Oh wow, OP, I hadn’t clocked that - yes, forceful indeed.

Similarly there are some Twitter users who have their pronouns in their actual handle, not just their bio. I have seen HCPs do this. It actually makes me question their overall competence, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by anyone doing this.

So I'll put my hands up that you have a valid point and I should have been better.

Good to hear, but I can’t help wondering if you’re going to take your pronouns out of your signature now, or leave them in?

I find it really sinister and cringey at the same time.

I received an email from a food delivery service signed male name (they/their).

DaddyPhD you could argue that you came to the stunning realisation that "he/him" in an email is telling the recipient that you like your penis.
🤷🏼‍♀️

As for Human Resources Management staff who think that forcing people to list a protected characteristic in all communications is a good thing, how exactly will this help the company if a staff member is disgruntled or actually discriminated against on these grounds?

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Daddy, if you want to help, do what my DH did. Say that you are extremely uncomfortable with some people having to “out” themselves before they are ready and possibly mutter something in confidence about how you may be considering your own identity.

DH only got pushback from one trans friendly colleague who knows him extremely well and sarcastically asked him if that really was how he felt.

DH maintained, innocently that it is very important that people can come out only when they are ready and that he wanted to have an inclusive work place where it was ok both to display pronouns (if ready) and wait (if still pondering). There was nothing the colleague could do.

I've already removed it from Outlook email, it was the specifically requested for Zoom presentation I was doing. I do intend to discreetly remove it, I'm sure my boss won't even notice.

As for as policy goes, I think its a case I'd be hung to dry if I pushed for others to remove it, but they would let it go if I pushed back for myself. I know they can't legally, but it's the sort of thing that can stop promotion, , being seen as a team player because the senior management think its the right thing to do.

I think someone has the right to put pronouns, especially in the case of those who are uncomfortable with he or she, beyond that its very murky who benefits...I'd find it hard to defend a guy like me insisting he uses he/him

Wow.

So, if I understand the OP correctly, it's OK to put she/her as your pronouns but not he/him.

Because it reinforces the patriarchy?

I have so much still to learn ...

Oh wow, OP, I hadn’t clocked that - yes, forceful indeed.

Similarly there are some Twitter users who have their pronouns in their actual handle, not just their bio. I have seen HCPs do this. It actually makes me question their overall competence, and I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by anyone doing this.

It is forceful. t's really unnecessary and in your face. I roll my eyes at signature pronouns in email but why do you actually need to put them in your name? It feels religious or at least political.

@Tulipomania

Wow.

So, if I understand the OP correctly, it's OK to put she/her as your pronouns but not he/him.

Because it reinforces the patriarchy?

I have so much still to learn ...

No that's not it.

Because we live in patriarchy, gender is a hierarchy with men at the top and women at the bottom. That's just the "world order" as it stands for now. Feminists are working on that.

In the meanwhile, (seeing as we haven't yet achieved full levelling of the sexes it's rather a lot of work) if you do things like:

"Hi I'm Dave I'm a man. Definitely a man" you're signalling your position on the hierarchy.

"Hi I'm Dawn, I'm a woman" likewise signalling your position.

In a normal email exchange your gender is discreet, in the background, no one's paying attention.
This makes it a bit easier for women.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
'Others, of course, are making a conscious choice to display their allegiance to the party line.

And whether it’s a conscious choice or not, it’s still a partisan political statement and as such has no place in professional interactions with the general public or colleagues, no more than someone’s stance on Brexit or abortion should be displayed in their email signature.

That’s why it gives me the rage. When it’s from a man, doubly so as it instantly tells me he is in favour of dismantling women’s sex-based rights and therefore as much of a misogynist in his own way as a bog standard overt MRA.'

Thank you, this is a very articulate way of describing my feelings!

@DaddyPhD the reality is that if you change your pronouns to she/her for a few emails to your boss and then remove the pronouns altogether, your boss is in HR terms fucked.
Read your organisations policy documents on what happens if you are mis-pronouned bet you can stop the boss objecting to you exploring your gender identity.

Actually if anyone is working for a pronoun organisation reading the policy should be a work priority.

I rather like the tt exulansic version pf pronouns relating to Gender Atheist: He/then .