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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

298 replies

TraumatisedinTwickenham · 20/11/2021 22:21

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 20/11/2021 22:32

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot.

The transactivists who have pushed this stuff where it’s claimed it’s bigoted to express any distress, disagreement or dissent have really done a number on women, many of whom are now the enforcers of this radical social straitjacket.

Of course it’s unfair and unreasonable and that’s before even thinking about the issue of changing rooms and showers.

Perhaps as it becomes more prevalent and more and more women drop out, they’ll finally see the harm, but that doesn’t help you much in the here and now.

I think I might leave, in your position, but that’s a really sad solution if you love your sport. It’s just horribly unfair, and utterly frustrating there’s no one you can appeal to. You have my sympathy.

Heruka · 20/11/2021 22:42

Sorry OP, this sounds really sad and while you didn’t expect to be upset - it is totally understandable you were. You are being expected to accept something that feels totally instinctively wrong and uncomfortable to you, and to ignore those feelings.

I think your first step should be to find out what the leagues position is. We are seeing more and more women ‘daring’ to challenge the removal of our sex based rights and I would encourage you to do so if you feel able. (I don’t, at work anyway, so I wouldn’t judge if you didn’t). The equality act is clear that sex is a protected characteristic so you have a right to single sex provision. If these transwomen have GRCs would likely mean the difference or not between the legality but there will be people who will sadly make you feel like a bigot even if your concerns are underpinned by legislation.

grafittiartist · 20/11/2021 22:48

It might be worth bringing it up formally- there will certainly be others that feel the same way as you.
(I would feel the same too).

Acquacup · 20/11/2021 22:53

Is it the kind of sport where playing against men is likely to make the game more dangerous? If so, it's an easier argument.

PlayerOneReady · 20/11/2021 23:31

So sorry OP I don’t have any advice but you aren’t bigoted for feeling this way - I would feel exactly the same.

PlayerOneReady · 20/11/2021 23:33

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000522515770

This is worth a listen if you have time.

StandWithYou · 20/11/2021 23:49

Was it rugby?

LoveGrooveDanceParty · 20/11/2021 23:53

This makes me so, so angry.

But there’s nothing you can do about it, because we’re not allowed to disagree.

Campfirewood · 20/11/2021 23:56

This really angers me, the end of women’s sport if this continues.
It’ll take lots of women getting seriously injured before this is taken seriously I fear.

TraumatisedinTwickenham · 20/11/2021 23:57

No, not rugby, hockey. The thing is, I have played mixed hockey in the past, albeit in inter club friendlies. But I don’t anymore, I don’t enjoy playing with and against men, they’re so much stronger and I’d be more worried about getting a ball in the face, I stopped about ten years ago.

I’m thinking of speaking to my club and trying to understand the clubs stance, but have to tread carefully as I don’t want to get booted out either because I do love it and have lots of friends in the club.

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PatterPaws · 21/11/2021 00:13

That's dreadful, OP.

Men shouldn't be in women's sports for the reasons you've said.

This is a story we're going to hear more and more in coming months and years.

unknownstory · 21/11/2021 00:27

I'm an adult hockey player. I play on clubs lower teams for fun and fitness. I played mixed games a couple of times as an adult. I hated it. Too physical & not that skillful. The men were too violent

oviraptor21 · 21/11/2021 00:30

I would ask not to be selected for the matches against this team on the grounds of fear for your safety.

toomanytrees · 21/11/2021 00:33

Re: Those team members who think you a are bigot.

Does their body language or actions say the same as their words? Are they quite happy to shower with these transwomen or are they also suddenly changing at home?

CheeseMmmm · 21/11/2021 01:02

Hockey I know little about apart from being told/understanding it is a sport where injuries aren't unusual.

That doesn't feel right.

None of this feels right.

The fact that males however nice they are. Feel it's totally no probs to join women's clubs groups etc including communal changing/ showers (if anyone uses them anyway) is just out of order.

You say there are mixed teams. Great. Perfect. Everyone happy.

But no. Women's team/ group. Communal changing.

They KNOW this is not on. Of course they fucking do. It's a conscious decision to ignore that. And however nice that's just shit.

CheeseMmmm · 21/11/2021 01:05

How did your team come to think that?

You said something to them or something?

The other half the team don't...

What is age mix?

The compulsion to be kind and smile is extremely strong. Also to avoid conflict.

timeisnotaline · 21/11/2021 01:09

I’d contact the club and say I was upset to see male bodied people allowed to play. I don’t understand why we weren’t consulted on what we are comfortankw with, i quit mixed hockey several years ago as it didn’t feel safe, I play hockey because I love it but I don’t want a life changing injury out of it! The other aspect is change rooms- really we should have been consulted as to whether we want to use communal showers with male bodied people, you have no idea what experiences players have in their history that might make this completely untenable. Aren’t our members opinions relevant here?

RedCarpetRebellion · 21/11/2021 07:08

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

This might help?

Legally the equality act single sex exemptions should apply to showers/changing rooms. But it’s up to the club to apply them, legally they should be able think the only recourse is civil suits if showing them the single sex exemptions doesn’t work. I’m not the expert though. Single sex exemptions apply to transwomen with a grc as well though.

Re: sports I don’t think there is a law that applies directly to sport. But I could be wrong. However the above article might help.

There are over 6000 differences between a male and female body. No amount of hormones and surgery can change the massive physical advantage they have over women, including over very fit and strong women.

An understanding of safeguarding and how to argue it might help. Safeguarding works from the point of view of ‘what’s the worse case scenario’ and working back from there to prevent harm.

So if something goes wrong and could have easily been predicted (tw retain same rates of violence as males, tw are much much stronger no matter the transition-and 90-95% retain their penis) the club would be legally responsible for showing they took every reasonable action to prevent that harm. If you prevent them with all the facts (and look up the research on the above, it’s easy to find here) and they do nothing and tw harm someone on the pitch or off the club would be responsible.

It’s not about how lovely these tw might seem, the stats show tw commit violence at the same rates as males. So there is always that risk. And a risk assessment, the club’s responsibility, should take that into account and take into account the physical differences on the pitch. You don’t need to know these tw would pose a risk, but because they are male you can’t know they won’t. And that’s what matters in safeguarding. (And don’t let them women-do -that-too you either, stats don’t show that). If you raise it you can do so from the point of view of trying to avoid the club facing legal action if something goes wrong. You might want to check through the below site, there’s an article about how organisations following stonewall legal advice may have policies that are illegal themselves.

legalfeminist.org.uk/

You are in a lousy place @TraumatisedinTwickenham. If you raise it you likely will face bigot accusations, which is why it matters to be very prepared and to know the facts. Maya’s Forstarter’s case established legal president as the high court judge said belief in the material reality of biological sex is a protected characteristic under philosophical belief under the equality act. So if you address this keep that in mind and quote it to them if you need to. It’s understandable to not address it given the current climate, but if you don’t then you could well be faced with the same reality at many games. Which, as you say changes, the experience of playing hockey and leaves yourself and others at risk both on the pitch and in changing rooms.

So it has to be the decision you feel most comfortable with. But worth keeping in mind women are now challenging this all over, and the veil is falling publicly. Read the threads here about the Nolan podcast, bbc article about lesbians raped by tw, the eb interview with nk on wh & the articles posted in MSM since this. There’s a lot more public recognition of the material reality of this ‘inclusion’ and it’s becoming understood that it means exclusion for 51% of the population in many circumstances. So it’s unlikely you are the only woman playing there who will feel this way, even if others are scared of raising it.

Good luck.

Charley50 · 21/11/2021 08:02

Hockey is a very physical sport. Common sense tells us that having men playing as 'women' will both give an unfair advantage to the team they are in, and put all of the women in physical danger of getting more injured than they would against just women (female ones).

Women also have the right to single-sex spaces when they're getting changed. For obvious reasons. For legal reasons.

What is so hard to understand about this? Please complain. You are not transphobic, you are realistic. And the dichotomy for me is, if these people feel so 'womanly' why don't they understand that most women do not want male-bodies in their sport or their changing rooms? Where is their empathy for women?

Sophoclesthefox · 21/11/2021 08:04

I’m really sorry you’ve been put in this position, twickenham.

It just shouldn’t happen. Women’s sports are for women’s bodies, not for male bodied people, regardless of how they identify, and it’s absolutely shameful and infuriating that saying so comes at a high social cost.

Unfortunately, there is no way round the issue that if you speak up, a number of people will immediately decide that you are a bigot and a hateful person. The thing to bear in mind is that there will be a small population who will agree with you and say so, and a much larger population of people who will agree with you but not feel able to say so.

It’s so hard. I really feel for you. I heard this position described recently as the “reverse Voltaire” : rather than “I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it”, it is now “I agree with what you say but will fight to the death to prevent you from saying it”.

If I were you? I would speak up to my club officials and let the chips fall where they may. I wouldn’t feel good in myself if I colluded. But there may, sadly, be a cost.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 21/11/2021 08:08

Have you checked your governing body’s policy about trans inclusion? That would be my first step. I would also check their safeguarding policy for changing rooms. It used to be normal for single sex changing to be written in there but in the past few years since the NGOs all had Stonewall/Gendered Intelligence training, those clauses seem to have disappeared.

I would then speak to Fair Play for Woman and ask for help making a complaint to the NGB.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 21/11/2021 08:12

Looks like we’ve got GIRES to thank for this one.

www.englandhockey.co.uk/governance/equality-diversity-inclusion/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-updates

TofuonToast · 21/11/2021 08:13

I can help! My club has been in touch with England hockey about this. They are currently reviewing their guidance after the sports council stuff. The umpire is responsible for safety so you could possibly approach them with the guidance and ask them if they are going to pick inclusion or safety during this match.
What’s your committees stance?

The brass neck of using the changing rooms… do you have children on your team? Privately approach the parents? Club welfare officer if you have one.
Please don’t back down.

Charley50 · 21/11/2021 08:16

It is not 'inclusive' to force women to change with men. All women, but specifically observant Muslim and Jewish women, who will just exclude themselves. Official Sporting bodies have a remit to get more women and girls, and more ethnic minorities, playing sport.

Men and boys are not underrepresented in sport. Women, girls, and specifically Muslim women are under-represented. We have just seen how racism in sport, when it affects men, is headline news. This is misogyny and racism in women's sport. I would complain along those lines and stand your ground. It has nothing to do with 'transphobia.'

TraumatisedinTwickenham · 21/11/2021 08:20

Thank you all.
To answer some questions, I don’t think my club was made aware by the other club that there were biological males on the other team.

When I say half my club thinks I am a bigot I didn’t mean it quite literally. When I heard about the team in question as I was warming up, I made a comment like, “I hope there are no biological males on the team because I’m not comfortable with it”, one of them said, “I’m not getting into an argument with you over it because we will fall out. I don’t agree with you so let’s agree not to talk about it” and then she added, very interestingly, “I can’t talk about it with my partner either as he thinks like you do” or something to that effect.
A couple of others piped up that they agreed with her.

Then when I was visibly upset during periods off the pitch, I took myself off the pitch for half the game because to add insult to injury, I was marking one of them. Well I say marking, I couldn’t keep up with them!

Those that saw me upset were so supportive as they always are of each other..until I told them why I was upset. And thought they didn’t say anything, their body language changed and the comforting hugs stopped. Aware I’m sounding a bit ridiculous as I write this. But I know of one person that agreed me as she told me she did, quietly and away from the others.

Thanks for the suggestions of things to read and listen to. If I contact the governing body or my club, I’ll certainly be quoting the Maya judgement. I hope it doesn’t come to that though, ie that I’m quoting it so I don’t get thrown out of my club rather than quoting it to argue why I’m upset.

I don’t know why I am still so upset about it because I’m generally a very upbeat person but this has really thrown me.

One of my good friends on the team was surprised by my point of view, saying that some people are just born in the wrong body and she just feels so sad for anyone who have to resort to such drastic measures and we should have compassion for them.

#bekind has taken on a whole new meaning on my life.

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