Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

@AnyOldPrion

Or you could engage in debate around the subject and try to persuade people to your views, instead of engaging in a campaign of exclusion and intolerance.

It seems like most people in the OP's club, and the club she was playing against, were fine with the TW being there. Mixed hockey works fine, it's not a safety issue.

Yes, because the polite approach is working so well for women.

Discussion and evidence have done nothing whatsoever to improve the ridiculous IOC situation. It’s long been said the only thing that will work is when women start to boycott, or set up their own sports.

Women are having their sports taken away from them and you think they need to prioritise tolerance for the men who are doing it?

NoThankYou.

Agree completely.

Women are being told to shut up and put up with being excluded and their female based needs not tolerated.

Either exclusion and intolerance matters to both sexes, or they are words just being used to make female people serve male people's interests. There are other and better words for that bit of injustice.

this does not work for all women, and excludes many. Is this a problem? Or only if it affects women who are biologically male?

I think the issue is that this does indeed appear to be a mixed team m, but it's competing in a women's league.

OP didn't join a mixed sex team. She joined a female team. This is a female team. It's a female league. With men. Which is cheating imo.

If arsenal ladies suddenly fielded Ronaldo would that be ok for them to continue playing in the woman's league?

Sorry but you’re talking twaddle. Mixed hockey is a very specific type of hockey with its own very specific rules E.g. the team must contain 5 male & 5 female players and the goalkeeper can be either sex, penalty flick must be taken by a female player

Just plonking a couple of blokes in a Women's team doesn’t make it suddenly mixed hockey as defined by the FIH

Hockey has been Stonewalled to the eyeballs & we know very well how much beeeeeee kiiiiiiiiinnnddd pressure is put on women

They’re happy at the moment. After all it’s only one opposition team and 2 trans women.
Imagine if, in the womens league, we came up against a team comprising of 11 trans women.
I all but guarantee people would be unhappy.
Whether anyone would speak up is a different matter.
It’s an unlikely scenario I grant you. But being unlikely shouldn’t mean they we shouldn’t protect against it.

Incidentally it’s been over 24 hours now. I’m feeling less upset now. Now I’m just really angry.

I'm glad @thedancingbear recognises this has become a mixed sex team though!

@thedancingbear

I bet the OP isn't the only person who was uncomfortable with the TW being there, even on the same team as the TW. Like the OP, they are probably too afraid to speak up.

Your points about mixed hockey are not helpful or relevant. Firstly, the performance gap between the sexes widens with ability, so if you were playing occasional mixed games then the gap might have appeared smaller, but if TW are allowed at literally any level, the performance gap will get wider. Also, in mixed hockey there are additional safety rules, for example a cap on the number of males allowed on pitch at any one time, and males aren't allowed to take the first strike at a penalty corner. Women's hockey has no such safety measures built in. It's just not a reasonable comparison.

And as for your suggestion that we resolve this by discussion and debate rather than boycott, I'm all for a good discussion, but I also care about my safety. Whatever nonsense Hockey England might have swallowed, the science is clear that it's not safe for transwomen to compete in women's sport. I care about my safety, so I'll be opting out, thanks. As we see more and more cases of transwomen competing in women's sport, it's only a matter of time before someone gets killed or seriously injured. That person won't be me.

Also, I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned upthread, but for all hockey leagues in this country, the minimum age to compete in adult hockey is 13. Almost every team I have played for or against has had kids of 13, 14 or 15 on.

So if people have in their head a picture of teams of burly 30+ year old women accommodating TW, picture instead a 13 year old girl. Because that's the reality

Actually OP the fact that mixed sex teams exist, and have specific rules, I think you can use to your advantage.
After all what would be the point of the rules on mixed sex teams in the first place if not to ensure that having males on the team ensures fairness and safety?

@titchy

Actually OP the fact that mixed sex teams exist, and have specific rules, I think you can use to your advantage. After all what would be the point of the rules on mixed sex teams in the first place if not to ensure that having males on the team ensures fairness and safety?

Titchy, would your concerns be allayed if (a) the league took a democratic view that, say, two TW/men (delete per your preference) were allowed to compete on each league and (b) the rules around short corners from mixed hockey were to apply to them?

Regarding (a), it sounds from the OP's teammates reaction that there could be consensus for that. I'm unconvinced by the argument that people won't speak out because it's considered un-PC or whatever. For example, plenty of people have no difficulty about immigration, or whatever the current political fixation is.

Titchy, would your concerns be allayed if (a) the league took a democratic view that, say, two TW/men (delete per your preference) were allowed to compete on each league and (b) the rules around short corners from mixed hockey were to apply to them?

I don't understand why there would need to be another set of regulations around mixed sex teams and leagues when there is already a perfectly good set of rules?

And how do regulations apply if a mixed/sex team is playing an all-women team?

I mean if the consensus was that there should be four leagues, one for natal men, one for a large women, one for mixed with max 5 males and a forth for mixed with max 2 males then yes, of course that would be absolutely fine!

TW would still want to play on the womens team though - as they are here.

Agreed titchy - there are already perfectly good rules for mixed hockey so why invent some new ones? Why should womens sport bend itself out of shape so that a few men don’t feel sad?

Oops - one for NATAL women, not large women

Ah yes. Let’s introduce two men into every women’s team, just to ensure everything is fair.

NoThankYou!

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Agreed titchy - there are already perfectly good rules for mixed hockey so why invent some new ones? Why should womens sport bend itself out of shape so that a few men don’t feel sad?

They don't have to. It sounds from the OP's teammates' reaction like they are choosing to, because they wish to be inclusive and don't see a fairness or safety issue.

If this was recreational rugby, I'd have concerns. If it was top level competitive hockey, I'd have concerns. It's neither; it's recreational sport and it sounds like most people are cool with it.

It's the difference between holding genuine concern for the integrity of women's spaces, and simply wanting to exclude TWs from as many social spaces as possible (see also the Parkrun thread, which interesting appears to have been quietly expunged). There's a point at which this place tips into petty intolerance, and it's been crossed here.

@AnyOldPrion

Ah yes. Let’s introduce two men into every women’s team, just to ensure everything is fair.

NoThankYou!

Literally no-one here has said this.

So according to dancingbear, we not only have to accommodate men in women's hockey, we also have to change the rules for women's hockey in case men want to play?

That seems a bit, erm, odd

As for comparing the situation to opinions on immigration

Literally no-one here has said this.

You're the one suggesting an additional variation on the existing mixed sex team rules ...

Men do not belong in Women’s sports it’s as simple as that

TW already have the choice of playing mens hockey or mixed hockey. Why the hell should they get to play Women’s hockey as well?

It sounds from the OP's teammates' reaction like they are choosing to, because they wish to be inclusive and don't see a fairness or safety issue

It doesn't matter though does it because OP's team mates can't unilaterally decide that the league is actually a mixed sex league. They are playing in a women only league. Not a mixed league.

So all women aren’t created equal.

Women playing top league sport shouldn’t have to contend with male-bodied players for all the obvious reasons.

But women playing recreational sport should just accept whatever other people think they should accept.

@titchy

It sounds from the OP's teammates' reaction like they are choosing to, because they wish to be inclusive and don't see a fairness or safety issue

It doesn't matter though does it because OP's team mates can't unilaterally decide that the league is actually a mixed sex league. They are playing in a women only league. Not a mixed league.

But it sounds like the other clubs are fine with it too. The clubs as a whole can absolutely decide that they want their league to be trans-inclusive.

And if the OP and her GC friends want to set up a natal-women-only league, then there is no law against that. It sounds as if they would get plenty of encouragement too.

Literally no-one here has said this.

No, but you’re determined to wedge some men into women’s teams, which has a very obvious detrimental effect on women’s sports.

Every man on the team is displacing a woman.

Every team that loses because the other team included some men has lost out.

And to be competitive, teams will gradually take on more men, as those men present themselves, because of the obvious physical advantages. And more and more women will be driven away.

So stop trying to wedge in your men and stop telling women how to deal with this. Your presence in this thread, where the OP has come on asking for advice because she is upset is frankly deeply disrespectful.