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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nobody knows why there are women and there are men?

231 replies

andyoldlabour · 18/11/2021 16:23

According to Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank:

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, nobody on this panel does"

Crikey, I know things are bad, but I didn't know we had reached Defcon 1 already.

twitter.com/notthatbeard/status/1461038528624791560?s=20

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 19/11/2021 15:03

@ArabellaScott

I don't know why some people are women and some people are men

WHY GOD WHY

Oh, well if you're asking god, I think the answer is that women exist so men won't be lonely.Confused and he'd gone and made male and female versions of all the other animals because he wanted them to be fruitful and multiply. (The Bible is silent on the matter of organisms which multiply by division ... well clearly that's plain wrong and not to be encouraged).
prudencepuffin · 19/11/2021 15:36

Dunno about all this but I have a male friend who once asked me: "What is the point of men"!

Cagedbirdsinging · 19/11/2021 15:36

@Awiltu , please will you tell me more about mitochondria ? How is it they are only inherited from the mother on her X chromosome , and why ? I believe the mitochondrial bodies are responsible for energy distribution and have heard them referred to as the cell's 'suicide body'. There's also a thing called Mitochondrial Disease I think .
Sorry for the derail , everyone , this is a fascinating thread on so many levels .

TheElementsSong · 19/11/2021 16:07

[quote Cagedbirdsinging]@Awiltu , please will you tell me more about mitochondria ? How is it they are only inherited from the mother on her X chromosome , and why ? I believe the mitochondrial bodies are responsible for energy distribution and have heard them referred to as the cell's 'suicide body'. There's also a thing called Mitochondrial Disease I think .
Sorry for the derail , everyone , this is a fascinating thread on so many levels .[/quote]
I'm not
@Awiltu
but I am a molecular biologist. Somewhat oversimplified explanation (I have skimmed over a lot of details, some exceptions, also I do not specialise in the finer details of cell biology, etc):

Mitochondria are not a thing on a chromosome.

Organelles are specialised structures inside cells. Mitochondria are organelles which generate the energy that cells need, in the form of ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

Mitochondria are really interesting organelles because they may have originated as endosymbionts - the hypothesis being that they were independent prokaryotic cells which got engulfed by another cell (like being eaten) but somehow survived and formed this win-win relationship with their host cell. Mitochondria have their own genome, a circular DNA chromosome bearing many similarities to bacterial circular genomes. They reproduce by binary fission, like bacteria, and do so on their own timetable independently of the mitosis of their host cell.

Both ova and spermatozoa contain their own mitochondria. Each sperm cell has a kind of "power bank" of mitochondria in the midpiece between the head and the tail. However, it is generally thought that when fertilisation takes place and the sperm fuses with the ovum to deliver its payload of chromosomes, the paternal mitochondria are deliberately destroyed by the ovum: therefore, only maternal mitochondria are passed on to the offspring.

Awiltu · 19/11/2021 16:27

TheElementsSong has provided a much better explanation than I could Grin

Mitochondria are like a cell's battery packs, and contain their own DNA which is quite separate from the 23 chromosomes in the cell's nucleus, so although we get our mitochondrial DNA from our mothers it is nothing to do with the X chromosome.

Mitochondrial disorders are a group of conditions (usually with a genetic cause) in which the ability of mitochondria to generate energy for the cell to use is impaired. MItochondrial disorders tend to particularly affect cells in the body which need a lot of energy to function properly, like nerve cells and muscle cells.

RepentMotherfucker · 19/11/2021 16:51

I am, as always, blown away by the knowledge of MN's hive mind. Truly amazing on all topics.

But I can't be the only one longing for the good old days when this thread was a simpler place and contained only word salad and the rambling plagiarisms of a toddler with a keyboard, can I?

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 17:53

fuck me.

"I'm not @Awiltu but I am a molecular biologist. Somewhat oversimplified explanation (I have skimmed over a lot of details, some exceptions, also I do not specialise in the finer details of cell biology, etc):

Mitochondria are not a thing on a chromosome.

Organelles are specialised structures inside cells. Mitochondria are organelles which generate the energy that cells need, in the form of ATP (adenosine triphosphate).

Mitochondria are really interesting organelles because they may have originated as endosymbionts - the hypothesis being that they were independent prokaryotic cells which got engulfed by another cell (like being eaten) but somehow survived and formed this win-win relationship with their host cell. Mitochondria have their own genome, a circular DNA chromosome bearing many similarities to bacterial circular genomes. They reproduce by binary fission, like bacteria, and do so on their own timetable independently of the mitosis of their host cell.

Both ova and spermatozoa contain their own mitochondria. Each sperm cell has a kind of "power bank" of mitochondria in the midpiece between the head and the tail. However, it is generally thought that when fertilisation takes place and the sperm fuses with the ovum to deliver its payload of chromosomes, the paternal mitochondria are deliberately destroyed by the ovum: therefore, only maternal mitochondria are passed on to the offspring."

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 17:53

that should be a pinned post - mnhq please note.

Cagedbirdsinging · 19/11/2021 18:21

Thank you @TheElementsSong and @Awiltu , elegantly explained .

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 18:31

so many possible name-changes in Elements' post....

Cagedbirdsinging · 19/11/2021 18:32

Do mitochondria ever go rogue and reproduce themselves -on their own timetable and independently of the host cell's mitosis ? If so , what would happen ?

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 18:34

It sounds like it bird:

"Mitochondria have their own genome, a circular DNA chromosome bearing many similarities to bacterial circular genomes. They reproduce by binary fission, like bacteria, and do so on their own timetable independently of the mitosis of their host cell."

but that this is normal and happening Inside Us All Right Now

TheElementsSong · 19/11/2021 18:59

I don't want to derail the thread further, but just to add more weird shit about cell biology:

The mitochondria divide on their own timetable, there is some evidence that they sort of respond to the demands of the cell for more energy and produce more of themselves accordingly. Although they have their own genome, it is not self-sufficient: a large number of the genes that (in free-living bacteria) would be required for maintenance and replication have been "outsourced" to the eukaryotic nucleus i.e. the main genome and the resulting proteins are made by the "host" cell's protein-production machinery (ribosomes). Therefore the mitochondria have to have a special protein transport system to import these proteins through their double membrane.

But also mitochondria have their own mitochondrial ribosomes which closely resemble bacterial ribosomes, which they use for making those proteins which are encoded by their own genome.

Mitochondria are not the only endosymbiotic organelles in eukaryotes. Plants also have plastids, e.g. chloroplasts which are the green organelles where photosynthesis occurs.

TLDR: It's massively complicated and really fascinating.

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 19:02

v cool.

like we are actually two things at once inside (all) our own cells.
And there I was still coming to terms with having bacteria and fungi in us.

CompleteGinasaur · 19/11/2021 19:08

I love this thread, I thought I was coming over to see O'hagen get roasted.. But instead , all this magnificence! ( I only just found out about The Fateful Encounter - MIND. BLOWN.)

prudencepuffin · 19/11/2021 19:44

So what do you specifically say to someone who says that its much more complicated than there being only two sexes. I am not a biologist and am having the GC position questioned by someone saying this. And citing Judith Butler, but I`m not going there!

foxgoosefinch · 19/11/2021 19:54

@TheElementsSong

I don't want to derail the thread further, but just to add more weird shit about cell biology:

The mitochondria divide on their own timetable, there is some evidence that they sort of respond to the demands of the cell for more energy and produce more of themselves accordingly. Although they have their own genome, it is not self-sufficient: a large number of the genes that (in free-living bacteria) would be required for maintenance and replication have been "outsourced" to the eukaryotic nucleus i.e. the main genome and the resulting proteins are made by the "host" cell's protein-production machinery (ribosomes). Therefore the mitochondria have to have a special protein transport system to import these proteins through their double membrane.

But also mitochondria have their own mitochondrial ribosomes which closely resemble bacterial ribosomes, which they use for making those proteins which are encoded by their own genome.

Mitochondria are not the only endosymbiotic organelles in eukaryotes. Plants also have plastids, e.g. chloroplasts which are the green organelles where photosynthesis occurs.

TLDR: It's massively complicated and really fascinating.

Oh this is amazing, thank you. I’m learning a lot!
lottiegarbanzo · 19/11/2021 20:13

I believe you say that there are disorders of sexual development, based on people ending up with unusual numbers of chromosomes (as a result of incomplete cell division during meiosis, which is the process of division that leads to sex cell, egg and sperm, creation). But:

  1. These people are still either male or female. Their disorder makes them a subset of one or another sex. (There are further complications to do with hormonal effects so sex expression but even so).

  2. These disorders are very rare.

  3. Many people with these disorders are infertile. Those that can reproduce do so in the normal way, as a man or a woman. There is no 'third (or 4, 5 or 6th) reproductive sex' created by intersex people.

  4. There isn't much of a relationship between those people with rare DSDs and the relatively many people who identify as trans or non-binary. They're different phenomena.

There was a thread about this, or touching on this, just the other day, with a handy table showing all the known DSD chromosome and expression patterns.

JTTerOnHoliday · 19/11/2021 20:44

@prudencepuffin

So what do you specifically say to someone who says that its much more complicated than there being only two sexes. I am not a biologist and am having the GC position questioned by someone saying this. And citing Judith Butler, but I`m not going there!
You could reply with this - not my words.

OK, are we sitting comfortably?

Once upon a time, possibly around a billion years ago, some very simple life-forms hit upon the idea of exchanging little bits of genetic material, which gave them the advantage of variation in changing environments. Amazingly, this is still how the majority of life-forms have “sex” - you may have heard of the worrying phenomenon of antibiotic resistance spreading through populations of bacteria.

Eventually though, some slightly less simply life-forms partially formalised the genetic-stuff-swapping arrangements by requiring different “mating types” - in some species of fungi, there can be a hundred or so mating types. These, therefore, are the only group of living things known to have anything remotely resembling a “spectrum” of sexes.

However, in pretty much all other known life-forms, the number of mating types settled to just two. In higher eukaryotes (this includes humans) there are no additional gametes. There is extensive debate as to why, because mathematically it means that only 50% of other members of your species are suitable mates.

The reproductive cells, known as gametes, can be isogamous (similar in morphology/size) or anisogamous (different in morphology/size). In anisogamous species, the difference boils down to:

Male gametes: Small, motile
Female gametes: Large, immotile
(Sometimes with isogamous species, we don’t call them male and female, but + and -.)

Some species produce both male and female gametes in the same individual, these are monoecious species (or in animals can be called hermaphrodites). Some species produce male and female gametes on separate individuals, these are dioecious species. The primary sexual characteristics of the individual refer to the production of the gametes.

Typically, dioecious species are sexually dimorphic (they have differences in their bodies as well as the gametes they make) - this is because of the unavoidable differences in necessary adaptions required for successful reproduction; the secondary sexual characteristics are connected with these adaptations.

The manner in which the sexual role of an individual of a dioecious species is established is variable. Some animals have sex determined by temperature during development (e.g. crocodilians), some can indeed change sex in the truest sense by producing the other gamete (e.g. some species of fish), some have gone for a hardwired chromosomal method.

Humans, like other mammals, are a dioecious anisogamous species whose sex is determined chromosomally, or specifically by the presence of the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome. Your complement of chromosomes is determined the moment your male parent’s small motile gamete fertilised your female parent’s large immotile gamete, and is passed into every cell of your body, where this chromosomal make-up determines how your body develops all those secondary sexual characteristics that evolution has determined are needed for the continuation of the species.

There is no known way for human sex, nor any of the true underlying architecture associated with our sexed bodies, to be re-written. We can make superficial modifications to appearance and circulating levels of sex hormones, but that’s it.

We are not Mr/Mrs Potato Head.

littlbrowndog · 19/11/2021 20:53

Gawd this place. Why bother going to college. Awesome here just awesome

ZombieMumEB · 19/11/2021 21:56

@Grumpyosaurus

I'm still baffled by the fuse box pic. It's going to haunt my dreams tonight.
Well I thought it was pretty obvious.

The fuse box represents a human body. Made up of many switches - which are binary. ie "on" or "off", which of course represents "male" and "female".

Thus, clearly representing how one can simply change their sex and/or gender. Science and biology actually has it all wrong - our DNA is actually microscopic fuse boxes.

I don't know why some fuse boxes are women and why some fuse boxes are men. No one on this (fuse box) panel does. And anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar.

CheeseMmmm · 19/11/2021 22:03

[quote BraveBananaBadge]Does anyone remember Insane Clown Posse?

amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/miracles-fucking-magnets-how-do-they-work[/quote]
What is a juggalo? Fucked if I know Grin

And that answer on this thread is about as relevant and informative as some of the others...!

specialsauce · 19/11/2021 22:11

We are not Mr/Mrs Potato Head

Grin
CheeseMmmm · 19/11/2021 22:14

@andyoldlabour

Oh yes, just wanted to say, the fuse box image was fascinating. Maybe if I flick the upsatirs light switch, a "Y" chromosome will appear?
How many people with Y chromosomes does it take to change a lightbulb?

At least one...

Lesbians have to use candles because of feminine brains lightbulbs too sciencey electric switch etc. Scares them and they stand on a chair and shriek. Also women living alone.

This is evolutionary, in order to encourage women to seek out a man to do all that sort of thing. (Apart from a small group of women who are ultra feminine in many ways but also logical, sensible and rational. They are few in number but much more evolved in all ways).

CheeseMmmm · 19/11/2021 22:23

The original part of the post by SCR that was questioned was the statement that gender gets assigned last.

That's not been answered I think? Through all their lengthy posts.

What are you trying to prove with your posts SCR?

it all seems to have got a bit involved. I'm sure given that it must be a very well known fact, that there must be more basic explanations?

I'm still not sure what the fusebox is for. Following the post about on/ off switches for humans. I'm assuming that the switch labelled laundry room is the feminine one and the switch for the much higher current car charger would be male? I mean if that's the intended analogy.