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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

999 replies

ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 21:58

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

OP posts:
1Endeavour2 · 09/11/2021 02:59

I think women and girls have been remarkably restrained so far. We stand to lose SO MUCH.
This is the most important issue of my lifetime.
This is a war and there can be no appeasement.
However we must stay rational and respectful or we lose the moral ground.

FlaggRF · 09/11/2021 04:15

@Babdoc

You mention kindness, OP. I think when a lot of previously kind women were subjected to rape and death threats by TRAs, told to die in a grease fire, suck lady dick, etc, their kindness was rapidly exhausted. Kindness needs to go both ways, no?
Yep.
Doubletoilandtrouble · 09/11/2021 05:01

OP I am sorry if you feel that way. And it is never good if people cannot voice opinions.

I have just seen so much lately that has made me so upset. The WiSpa, the Loudoun rape, Kathleen Stock, the TRAs trying to silence lesbian rape victims, a white, middle class transwoman running a show about black people (!) and trying to cancel a black man, sex offending transwomen moved into women’s jails. The list goes on an on.

And the impact is seen in the schools. My children are being taught about this in a very. confusing way.

I used to be much less hardline. I used to think that special accommodations should be made.But then I had several conversations with transwomen posters on here. The vast majority are kind and measured and have gone through a lot of trauma. I understand that, I do.

But the majority of cases they keep demanding access. And any CSA trauma, the trauma of rape victims, the trauma of sexual assault, they just don’t seem to be considered. We end up with a thread where the biologically male transwoman’s trauma is centred and any female trauma ignored. And new posters telling us to be kind. It is always the same.

There was an AIBU thread. A proponent of CIS actually told a woman “I don’t give a f*ck about your childhood trauma”. I feel that so many TRAs feel like that when it comes to biological women Sad. Sometimes I get angry and it shows in my posting.

Mummyoflittledragon · 09/11/2021 05:59

@BloodinGutters

This is a feminist board.

I don’t think how many trans people are violent tra’s or how many are naice sweet tw just going about their daily life peacefully is relevant here.

This board is for woman=adult human female. This board is about women’s rights. Including those born female who identify otherwise.

There’s never ending crime stats on the threat males pose to us.

We don’t need to quantify that threat. We don’t need to self edit and post disclaimers about most males are respectful and peaceful when talking about male violence against women and girls. We don’t need to centre anyone here but women. Women’s voices and women’s needs.

Whether most transwomen are nice or not isn’t our concern, there’s plenty other areas of mn that centre trans peoples voices. This is the one board, on a parenting forum full of mostly women, that we have just for women’s needs. And we don’t have to be naice and polite about that here.

This. The feminist board has been split in half. Hadn’t you noticed op?
RhymesWithOrange · 09/11/2021 06:10

@Bellendejour

I had already typed the phrase ‘lesbians with penises’ by 9am this morning and you know what I’ve just hit a fucking wall with it all. Do you read the abuse women like Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey, Julie Bindel etc get on the reg. It’s terrifying. I’m scared to just be following these people, to just like the odd tweet, I have to think about how it could impact on me, my career in the future because we are not allowed to hold a different opinion. I mean ffs lesbians aren’t allowed to say they don’t want to fuck penises! When they talk about being raped and assaulted and coerced they are called liars! That’s the baseline now and it’s fucking terrifying. People picketing a factually article about the way lesbians bodies rights and spaces are being violated.

I am sorry for genuinely nice trans people who don’t want to encroach on women and girls spaces and rights but we’ve had enough. We can’t even share a measured opinion online - look at Margaret Atwood. She’s 81 and had only ever been supportive of trans people and got hammered with death threats, her address published online, for retweeting an article about the erasure of women which is a reality, she was absolutely eviscerated.

We’ve been kind and there’s no fucking point because TRAs hate us anyway. ‘Enjoy ur erasure’. They don’t care about our rights, we are an irrelevance, an obstacle to be stomped over.

What are moderate trans voices doing to address the issue? To push for third spaces etc. It can’t all be on us, all the fighting and putting fires out and desperately trying to prevent complete oppression and the loss of our identies, our existence, the frightening loss of protection and rights for women’s and girls, the loss of kids who might have desisted without affirmative care where they self diagnose and no one questions them, soon won’t be allowed to question them.

Why do we always have to be the ones to stretch ourselves paper thin and still be smiling and being fucking kind at the end of it. We just don’t have anything left to give.

I love this post.
BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 06:14

@Coyoacan

As someone who is more concerned about the effects of the trans ideology on children, the trouble with being kind with pronouns is that we are helping to create the pretence that it is really possible to change sex. Resulting in more mutilated youngsters. So being kind is being harmful
And resulting in girls who think they have to shut up and swallow their feelings about a male in female toilets/changing. Or young lesbians who think they must learn how to cope with sex with a female cock.

We are taking away their ability to name material reality. Which is an essential safeguarding skill. So we damage their safety as well as pushing some towards damaging transition.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 09/11/2021 06:21

@CheeseMmmm - shitshow be right! and yes, regular flouncing because of the conflicting views within the group.

GC people are not a homogenous mass (much like MN isn't!) and the FB groups really do show it.

In some ways it's better though, because it's not a complete echo chamber and people come to GC thinking from totally different areas and points of view.

JustcameoutGC · 09/11/2021 06:49

OP i agree that this board has become more frank, largely because due to Mayas case we can actually day what we mean a bit more.

Personally, as i have learned, i have become less compromising. I have gotten more comfortable with saying no, without hedging, just a straightforward, unadulterated no. No lesbians don't have penises, no men don't belong in womens prisons or sports, no children should not be supported on the path to removal of healthy body parts. No ifs, no buts, just no, fuck no.

It has been the somewhat less egregious issues that have actually helped crystallise my thinking more. Like toilets and pronouns.

Thinking through the increasing expectation that we use preferred pronouns has helped me focus less on the trans issues and way more on gender ideology. This for me is the battle front. I would never accept any hint of someone elses religion being foisted on me, even if it was a pretty benign religion. I would fight it tooth and nail. This is why i don't think we are in a position where compromise is possible, i will not kow tow to fundamentalism in any form.

Abhannmor · 09/11/2021 06:49

A boycott is me not eating Outspan oranges from apartheid South Africa. Cancelling is when rich and powerful media 'influencers' urge their myriad followers to call for someone to be fired, bankrupted and personally isolated. These things are in a different moral universe.

beastlyslumber · 09/11/2021 06:57

I've been posting on MN for about ten years, on and off, and I agree FWR has changed tone in that time, but actually I think it's got nicer! There used to be a lot of drive-by MRAs who would come and start a fight, and for a time there was some quite intense and unpleasant disagreements over aspects of identity politics. Not surprising, since identity politics destroyed so many groups - but I think this board, for various reasons, managed to overcome it. So, I agree it's changed but that's good and normal, for a healthy group of people, to not always be the same. Personalities come and go, and the dynamics will shift. It's how it should be. Just my perception.

Anyway, now there's a special #bekind feminism board for anyone who can't cope with this one. Even though that was obviously intended to marginalise gc women here, I think it might have turned out to be a genius idea as all the #bekinds have a place to go and can leave the women's rights chat to everyone else.

ViceLikeBlip · 09/11/2021 07:08

Thank you to everyone for all your replies. I agree with all those who have pointed out that my late night hand wringing about safe online spaces was ridiculous!

Ironically, it was reading Material Girls that really got me questioning whether my own stance had gone too hard line for my liking (Kathleen Stock is so rigorously academic at all turns) and I was just wondering whether anyone else was feeling the same way.

It's always nice to hear a few voices who do feel the same way, but also good to have a few (!) reminders of why other don't feel that same way.

OP posts:
alicesfavouritepen · 09/11/2021 07:19

Absolutely agree OP.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 09/11/2021 07:30

I agree with you OP.
it's like groundhog day on here sometimes, often threads only seem to have a tenuous link to feminism and women's rights.
For me it is starting to feel echo chambery & uncomfortable sometimes so I don't engage much, I rarely feel I have much to add nowadays & the conversations don't appeal to me.
I'm steering clear of this stuff on twitter too so now I'm pretty much just gc on my own in my own way - thus far in day to day life I'm fortunate enough to not have been directly impacted yet.

Eppdeepydoop · 09/11/2021 07:31

Just to say this is a great thread. Started off thinking maybe op is right. Then read through, got to this one:

Replace the wordtrans peoplewith men andTRAswith MRAs and I think you might be able to see the points people are making.

We all know Not All Men Are Like That, but on a woman-focused forum we don't need to constantly be repeating that. For some reason though we do seem to need to constantly be repeating that we know NATransALT.

Realised this is so true.

FWR always used to be full of women totally uncompromising about the focus on women and that in itself taught me so much. It is great if it is changing back to that.
I do like it when a thread changes my mind Flowers

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 07:35

@Eppdeepydoop

Just to say this is a great thread. Started off thinking maybe op is right. Then read through, got to this one:

Replace the wordtrans peoplewith men andTRAswith MRAs and I think you might be able to see the points people are making.

We all know Not All Men Are Like That, but on a woman-focused forum we don't need to constantly be repeating that. For some reason though we do seem to need to constantly be repeating that we know NATransALT.

Realised this is so true.

FWR always used to be full of women totally uncompromising about the focus on women and that in itself taught me so much. It is great if it is changing back to that.
I do like it when a thread changes my mind Flowers

Love this ^^
AnyOldPrion · 09/11/2021 07:40

The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I wasn’t particularly interested in that thread. I definitely don’t feel strongly enough to e-mail M&S so after reading the first few posts, I stopped reading. I think it’s obvious some women prioritize different things and are angry over different scenarios, and that’s their business.

But as you singled it out, I went and looked further (five pages in, I haven’t read the full thread) and I saw many different views being stated. Some posters were saying it’s useful, others were agreeing with your proposition, that e-mailing and calling for boycotts is an overreaction. “Looking for a fight” was one of the phrases used.

There certainly wasn’t an echo chamber or a blanket of uniform views. The OP had stronger opinions on this than I do, but there was no consensus of agreement, even among the posters who I think would consider themselves to be gender critical.

Compare that to the wall of out and out hate faced recently by Margaret Atwood for posting something about the word women being eroded. It’s not remotely similar and if you see it as such, then I think you are judging the two sides with a very skewed view.

You use the word “clamouring” but the reality in that thread is that the OP expressed quite a strident view, which very few people actively agreed with. A few felt strongly enough to e-mail, presumably politely objecting against the fact that introducing pronoun badges is a long way from being neutral, and probably also relating to the truth: that this is very often cynical virtue signaling on the part of these big companies, and really doesn’t indicate any real shift in values.

There were a couple of people saying they “made GC people (feel) unsafe. And that is very much a transactivist point of view, in my opinion. I really hope gender critical women do not go down that line as it’s very annoying to me. I can understand it would make people uncomfortable and perhaps feel less welcome, but the “unsafe” rhetoric is generally not backed up with any real evidence of risk.

One thing I can see is that introducing pronoun badges is far from being a neutral act. For me, it’s not worth fighting for, but I understand others feel differently and perhaps simply have more energy for calling out transactivism wherever they see it, whereas I tend to concentrate on supporting more major initiatives, where there are legal challenges, or government consultations that might sway the outcome of significant changes. But I don’t see those women, personally boycotting businesses and perhaps e-mailing their objections as anything like those posting death threats on Twitter and encouraging businesses to boycott women who express the wrong views.

A few women e-mailing M&S about pronoun badges is not the same as a few transactivists contacting an art gallery to complain they are selling the work of an artist who said something they don’t agree with on Twitter. The power and impact in each case is hugely different.

In the unlikely event M&S listen, then all that happens is a badge company makes different types of badges. Perhaps a few transactivists will be disappointed, but nobody is really losing out. Whereas if the art gallery listens and stops promoting that artist’s work, then their entire career can go down the pan.

Do you see that these things really are not the same? It’s not about the tone of the argument? It’s about relative power and how it is being used.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 09/11/2021 07:41

I just want to add that for me it is a lot about my children.

There is another thread on the board now where lush apparently serves as a pickup point for breast binders so young girls can pick them up behind their parents’ backs. I won’t bore you with the research on how damaging they are.

We had a poster (transwoman) on this thread, adamantly arguing that primary school children needed to be taught about the use of cleaning of sex toys. My children are 5 and 8 and I was horrified.

Another poster was really happy that GG taught primary school aged children about being asexual as “women have bleach poored in their vaginas in today’s society”.

Many posters probably come from a good place and want to prevent the trauma they had themselves as abused and/or sexualised children. Their (in my view unacceptable) solution is pushing gender and sex to increasingly younger children.

I do understand their traumas. I am just beyond angry that their solution is to impose impropriety conversations about sex (with random adults) and sex education about kink, all aimed at children of my age. They keep talking about their traumas, their bad childhoods etc and the women here are called insensitive for talking about safeguarding. We are called bigots for not wanting advanced sex Ed for 8-9 year olds. And the only thing we are saying is no. Not for children. And on other threads other (or the same?) posters tells us to have a nap, that we are angry red holes and that they don’t give a f*ck about our childhood traumas.

Some days I get cross. And sarcastic. But I don’t ever think I have been mean to an individual on this board, or dismissed anyone’s trauma.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/11/2021 07:45

@MiladyBerserko

Oh I know BreadInCaptivity but the tone policing does my fucking head in.

Marion Miller almost had to sell her house and was in danger of going to jail for having similar rants and for posting fucking ribbon pictures. Lush are encouraging young girls to damage their bodies and their health with binders and we are supposed to applaud this?

The pronoun badges is part of the entire ideology and we should have fucking learned by now that they don't let us pick and choose which bits of the ideology we can choose. There is no fucking nuance in this ideology, it's total and absolute capitulation else we are bigots.

I'm saying No. No nuance, no politeness, fuck off.

So many powerful posts - including this one! So thank you OP, (even though my heart sank when I read your initial post). You've enabled women to get in touch with our deep fury at the outrageousness of what's being done to women and children

No. No nuance, no politeness, fuck off

Sophoclesthefox · 09/11/2021 07:46

Great post, notbadconsidering.

The way I see it, I am not under any moral obligation to be nice to or nice about an ideology I find distressing, regressive and harmful. It does seem that people can’t/won’t distinguish between rejecting and resisting an ideology while at the same time having no personal beef against the people adhering (or purporting to adhere) to that ideology. That’s fine- it’s always happened, for example with religion, where I have very little time for any religious dogma, but have lots of friends and family who are religious, and we all muddle along just fine.

But it should be obvious, really, that not every post here needs to have a disclaimer at the end saying “it’s the ideology, not the people”.

Some people are always going to rub us up the wrong way. There are posters here whose posts I won’t even read because they irritate me like a pebble in my shoe. That’s fine. We can all still rub along. The disagreement is positive- this is what diversity means.

Sophoclesthefox · 09/11/2021 07:49

I had t seen your update post, OP, I was typing too slowly.

I agree, actually, that it never hurts to stop and remember everyone’s humanity. There are humans behind all of these words, and we’re all bringing our stuff here, whatever that stuff might be.

We shouldn’t ever forget that, and while it might sometimes seem that overwhelmingly, people are forgetting our humanity, retaliation in kind helps nobody. I still am a fan of They Go Low, We Go High Grin

Evesgarden · 09/11/2021 07:57

Its a political statement OP.

They may as well just put 'Vote Labour" or "vote Tory"

People are right oppose it.

OvaHere · 09/11/2021 07:59

@ViceLikeBlip

Thank you to everyone for all your replies. I agree with all those who have pointed out that my late night hand wringing about safe online spaces was ridiculous!

Ironically, it was reading Material Girls that really got me questioning whether my own stance had gone too hard line for my liking (Kathleen Stock is so rigorously academic at all turns) and I was just wondering whether anyone else was feeling the same way.

It's always nice to hear a few voices who do feel the same way, but also good to have a few (!) reminders of why other don't feel that same way.

Prof Stock has always been very polite, thoughtful and kind. She has always been willing to use preferred pronouns. She has been the epitome of nuance and compromise.

Fat lot of good it did her.

So what's the point?

I just don't care about being called anti trans/transphobic anymore. It's lost all meaning for me.

Margaret Atwood, a long time trans ally, asked one small question that diverted from the orthodoxy and they burned her as a heretic. So really why bother trying to find middle ground and be nice? They won't meet you half way.

violetanemone · 09/11/2021 08:00

We were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights

Comments like the above are problematic and not so different from those spouting "All Lives Matter" in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests.

i.e. "I'm not anti-black, I'm pro-white".

It just creates an opening to further intolerance being allowable, and I am not at all surprised that these boards are now going in a more anti-trans direction.

AnkleDeep · 09/11/2021 08:01

It has changed since HQ's ridiculous capitulation to the TRA's tantrums.

It's insulting that this area has different styles of moderation from the rest of the site because HQ are too scared to support women.

No one should have a post deleted for stating a biological fact.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/11/2021 08:03

Unfortunately, you can't simply say, oh we will only let the nice ones into our spaces because there is no way to separate the groups. The only way to keep protecting females is to keep our spaces single sex.

Exactly.
My eyes have also been opened quite widely by reading transwidowsvoices.org and childrenoftransitioners.org. Any feminist or women-only space that includes transwomen is a space that’s automatically excluding their wives and daughters - the ones who should be getting priority. ‘Nice’ or empathetic transwomen will respect the concept of women’s spaces and stay out of them.