Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

[quote julieca]@CheeseMmmm your comment is disingenuous. Anyone who does not agree with the majority view gets called a troll, a man, etc and chaséd off the board.[/quote]
No one chases anyone off this board.

Some retreat with their tails between their legs because they can’t keep up with reasoned logical discourse.

It’s actually really easy to stay and learn something. Expand thinking and evaluate your beliefs.

Mine change faster than my anger can keep up with. I feel constantly that the veil is dropping.

I can’t imagine anyone reading here and not learning from it. Unless of course they don’t want to learn. Which swiftly becomes obvious when the tail tucks and runs.

@OvaHere

Manipulation comes in different guises. I've been on FWR for around 6 years now, maybe longer. In that time I've seen a lot of 'reasonable TW' come and go. I find in the end they all have had self interested reasons for being here and holding whatever position it is they take. A long time ago I also used to think their input might be helpful. I no longer think this.

I have a problem with the idea that it's only the violent threat/ suck my dick anime crowd on twitter who are a problem. In some respects they're the least of our problem because Twitter mostly isn't real life.

It's rarely those people who are lobbying government, businesses and organisations, getting legislation and policy changed that disadvantages women and girls. We need to be just as aware of the disingenuous sleights of hand as we do the rape and death threats

This is an excellent point Ova.

[quote julieca]@Enough4me I believe in single-sex spaces. I still don't fit in here. I have seen women with more nuanced views accused of being trolls. This is just an echo chamber.[/quote]
Nuanced views?

Vagina people need words to refer to us as a group. Woman girl has gone. Female is going. Billions of women, half the world. To be seen as not connected. Sub groups. Menstruators. Ovulators. Etc.
That is a massive massive attack on every woman and girl in the world.

Males are in women's prisons. In with women FFS. That is appalling. Obviously. Apparently saying that makes you as evil as any mass murdering dictator.

It's insisted that any male who has an internal ID (invisible unprovable) of woman is by definition not a risk to women or girls ever.

Etc etc.

Where is the nuance? What nuance? It's a disaster for... Those with cunts. That's obvious. And irl your person on the street knows that. The idea that the public are on board is another ridiculous notion.

@OvaHere

Manipulation comes in different guises. I've been on FWR for around 6 years now, maybe longer. In that time I've seen a lot of 'reasonable TW' come and go. I find in the end they all have had self interested reasons for being here and holding whatever position it is they take. A long time ago I also used to think their input might be helpful. I no longer think this.

I have a problem with the idea that it's only the violent threat/ suck my dick anime crowd on twitter who are a problem. In some respects they're the least of our problem because Twitter mostly isn't real life.

It's rarely those people who are lobbying government, businesses and organisations, getting legislation and policy changed that disadvantages women and girls. We need to be just as aware of the disingenuous sleights of hand as we do the rape and death threats

Which is why feminism should only ever centre women’s voices.

Why this board should focus on women’s rights and women’s needs and not moderate our voices with disclaimers about what we think the answers are for the nice kind transwomen. Transwomen can sort transwomen’s problems. Women don’t need to have the answers for every other group. We are allowed to just stick to our needs, our voices, our boundaries. We aren’t responsible for the effect that has on anyone but us.

This is one of the few places where women can prioritise women and girls. It needs to remain that way. ‘Inclusive feminism’ only harms women.

The other point is. The years I've been here this section has ALWAYS been a magnet for men who think certain threads are unfair. Tarring men with same brush. Men who feel the need to come and say look. False rape allegations are very common.
It's sexist to focus on one sex.
Women cause as much damage and at the same rate as men.
Women posting are man haters.
Etc etc.

I'm still doing what I've always done and when I read a thread and one turns up, to engage. Even though I know it's pointless. Bad for my blood pressure. Puts me in a bad mood.

How do I talk to them? Same way I talk to anyone else.

Ditto the women who like to post on this board and take the line those men do.

If I disagree I disagree.
I express it as best I can and try to argue my points.
It is exhausting. Most of them NEVER let up. And do not post in good faith. At all.

I've been at this for years.

Should I be gentler or something with posters I disagree with? Be more understanding? Across the board?

No. Why should I?

@CheeseMmmm

Nuanced is the new naice.

There’s also the obvious thing that we are not allowed to say on threads, which is that there are clearly some posters who pop up but who all have very similar writing styles and very similar things to say (often worded in strangely similar ways); and who if you commit them to memory, occasionally give themselves away. It’s clear that some threads are targeted by these kinds of posters (or poster) and that there are a few bad faith actors in the mix who are not always very convincing at what they do.

We’re not allowed to say this on threads though - but I imagine lots of us are aware that we are not always arguing with posters who are genuine and arguing in good faith.
And that affects the tone because if you can sense that you’re being had or being goaded but aren’t allowed to say it, then there’s likely to be a lot more anger and less “kindness” on the boards.

And yet.

Where is the nuance in views including-

All a woman is or ever has been. Is a social role that has nothing to do with sex.

In sport there's no physical difference. If women lose to transwomen it's because the women are not trying hard enough.

An invisible unverifiable feeling is what's important when it comes to anything that used to be single sex.

Women and girls who don't accept that penis can be female. Are . In a situation with communal changing for eg swimming. Any girl or woman who notices another is male and is ???. Is a bigot. If they are concerned about dick around the place. They're perves that's why they're looking.

...

And so on.

What I've noticed, again over many many conversations.

Is that sex matters posters usually talk at a group level. About impacts on juvenile/ adult vagina people generally.

While the posters who want to talk about what ifs, nuance. Etc. Invariably are only interested in their own situation and why they should be an exception.

That's just never going to result in a useful dialogue is it.

May sound odd, but in some ways I find the anger reassuring as long as it's pointed at the real issues. I don't always have the words, facts or energy to say why women's spaces are vital, but others on here do and I appreciate their effort.

@ViceLikeBlip
It is polarising more and more.
I've noticed it in GC groups on FB as well - more women are pushing back about giving ANY accommodation to the TRAs, because "give an inch and they'll take a mile" is coming into play.

I find myself moving slowly in the same direction as well but I still push back against the women who are vehemently anti-men and anti-childbearing, because that's not how I feel. It can feel like there's a lot of animosity when I push back - because there are extremists at both ends of this fight. And it IS a fight. Women are fighting to retain the rights that they've slowly accrued over the last 100 years, only to have them whipped away in the last 10 by a tiny minority of, mostly, men.

Women who constitute themselves as "allies" are, to many, even worse because they can't even see that they're selling out womanhood.

So yes, the pushback has got stronger, more vociferous, more polarised because the "softly softly" approach isn't working so far.

Any female, and some males, trying to be accommodating to the trans ideology whilst still maintaining that biology is real is automatically considered transphobic now - look at Kathleen Stock, look at Dave Chapelle. There is no fence-sitting allowed from the TRA side - and gender critical people are now deciding the same, as a defence.

When you see that the TRA side is now using DARVO tactics - claiming that everything they have done is now being done TO them, and calling being gender critical "an ideology" [just HOW?] then you can see too that we are in the fight of our lives. And that giving even an inch is too much now.

I don't hate trans people. I never have. But I DO hate the current situation and the TRAs' agenda to apparently remove all safeguards for women and girls, and children, regardless of what they say it's about. And the more they push their fantasy, the more I and others will fight for reality - and if that means that their pronouns are a casualty, well, so be it.

Using the wrong pronoun for someone is NOT violence, nor abuse. Threatening death, rape, your children, your livelihood - that IS violence and abuse.

@Snugglepumpkin

Being kind means that a transwoman decided it was okay to grope my autistic nieces breast in the womens toilets a couple of weeks back.

Please show me a single positive thing about transwomen taking over womens spaces or even entering them.

Where is the benefit for real women in having their scholarships stolen, their awards stolen, their sports stolen, thier social clubs stolen, their identities stolen, their jobs stolen, their representation stolen, their jobs stolen, their safe spaces stolen?

Their existence in womens spaces shuts out natal women of some faiths & cultures.
They do absolutely nothing to help real women.
They do nothing to help anyone but themselves.

They aren't kind, so why should women be?

No 'kind' transwoman would ever enter any women only space, so the minute 'they just want to go to the loo/be in the lesbians only club/win woman of the year/model for Chanel/take an actresses job playing a female role' they have proven themselves the same as every other male stomping all over womens rights.

I'm so sorry and very angry he did that to your niece. It should never be enabled. The questions you ask are essential for us all to think about our answers to. If someone disagrees, she or he should answer about the positives instead of just tone policing.

I was reading threads from 2014 when searching for info on a retired boxing promoter who was being celebrated in a TV interview for his 'joyous journey'. He strangled his wife, said he wouldn't have stopped if his 4 and 10 year old daughters hadn't walked in, he threatened her with suicide, stole her clothes, lied and had a double life with a secret flat, was very homophobic and groped women. The tone of the FWR thread was refreshing, clearheaded and centred on women. I hope the board is returning to that.

Some of us never believed in this ideology, never tried to be accomodating and police others to prioritise certain men over women. I think the pressure to do that might be influenced by class, maybe where you live. It's not a virtue to try to ignore the victims of what you promote. This is all being imposed on people like me. It's not a normal way of life that we have always put up with, it is new and getting worse. Many women like me find Rex Landy's tone to be refreshing and inspiring and find her passion for protecting women and children above men's feelings and desires to be a positive thing. I don't understand those who want women like her, Julia Long, Kellie-Jay Keen, Vanessa Vokey and Snugglepumpkin to be meeker, less honest and to speak up less. You may prefer to speak in ways you see as nice which is fine but it's not 'nice' to call women with a passionate tone names like grim, toxic or phobic.

OP,

I can't and won't speak for anyone else, but yes, I have over the last few years, become more hardline in my GC beliefs.

That said, I've worked/socialised/house-shared with a number of TW in my life (I've yet to encounter at TM for disclosure) and with the exception of one very unpleasant person whom I'd I've found obnoxious regardless of their gender identity, I've had positive experiences.

I think lot of people however misunderstand the difference between being transphobic and utterly fucked off with gender identity ideology.

I am angry that so many govt institutions and companies like M&S have been capture by Stonewall.

I have been hardened by seeing Trans activists (many of whom are not trans) seek to silence women on social media forums and in the workplace.

The audacity to try and take away the language by which we can even define ourselves as such by relegation to a sub class of our own sex infuriates me.

I'm fed up/done with/exasperated when I see a "bastion" of the high street like M&S that's made millions by being renown for selling woman's underwear/fashion throw it's customers under the bus because we are obviously seen as a largely unimportant middle aged female cohort that aren't cool/woke/important enough.

The corporate virtue signalling is bloody offensive and demeaning and the capture of govt institutions incredibly chilling.

So, no. Enough. The Christmas requests for items from Lush/Body Shop will go unanswered.

I won't be dropping (many) hundreds of pounds at the doors of M&S for my Christmas food nor will the likes of Sainsbury's get the benefit of the thousands I spend on food shopping over the year.

I won't be pressed into putting pronouns on my email signature/LinkedIn profile or introduce myself as "she/her" in a work meeting.

I won't continue to support The Guardian newspaper through volunteer subscription or The Good Law Project or the NSPCC (organisations I used to donate to).

I won't vote for The Labour Party or be a member again until they figure out which sex has a cervix.

I what I will do is use the money I've saved from the above to continue to fertilise the gardens of some very brave women holding these organisations/institutions to account.

I'll also continue to be, as I have always been, a friend/ colleague to the TW in my work/social orbit and value them as individuals whose company I enjoy.

'I find myself moving slowly in the same direction as well but I still push back against the women who are vehemently anti-men and anti-childbearing, because that's not how I feel.'

This is on Facebook I assume? What sort of groups?

I was invited to a load of closed/ secret groups on FB at one point. Yes there are some ideas that are to me pretty... ???!!!

I don't remember man hating though, a lot of separatists though!

Are a lot of them USA based groups? That's what I found.

Really interesting! (Sorry this is a sidetrack!).

In the end those with extreme views in feminism have zero mainstream influence etc. There's no let's get violent etc. Talk about how to defend yes.

Compared to other groups with extreme members they're.. well. Fluffy in comparison!

I stopped bothering in the end not my scene. That's always an option sometimes you end up feeling invested though!

@Floisme

I recognise you from always! Hello! (I name change every few years!). Hello to you too CheeseMmmm.

I think it's a great shame we have to name change so often - well I don't cos I'm too lazy but we all know why so many posters do. And why good posters disappear.

Anyway op, we get threads like this fairly regularly and last time we had one I said something mean which I later regretted, so I'm off shortly because I don't want to do it again. But if you think the tone on here is a bit off sometimes then maybe it's worth thinking about why. it happens. I don't know of any other board on here that's monitored or reported as relentlessly as this one - no wonder tempers get frayed.

Didn't reply!

Lovely to see another long term poster on a thread :)

The big exoduses every few years make a big difference! Then loads of stuff changes all over the place!

I swear to God, there was a thread almost exactly like this a few years ago, right down to the demands for 'nuanced' argument.

What part of lesbians having the right to refuse cock requires 'nuanced' argument? What part of talking about the injustice about locking up rapists with women in prisons demands 'nuanced' argument? Fuck that.

What is this nuanced argument? Is it where we play nice and don't object? What is the objectionable 'tone' of these threads? Is it women saying fuck right off to the wholesale colonisation of women's rights and words, because I AM saying fuck right off and I really really want the tone of that fuck off to be perfectly fucking understood.

I often wonder about the male dominated sites. When this topic comes up. I'd be surprised if there's loads of kindness and nuance tbh.

And in general i don't understand why some women saying nope. Is focused on so much.

Women esp feminists aren't exactly a group that is listened to! Never have been. If we are then all this stuff would never have happened in the first place. Prisons sports etc etc.

When it comes to transphobic comments. Street harrassment, violence. Hostility. Etc. It's blokes surely that are the problem.

From not seeing as women in every way, to serious violence.

So why are women who don't agree the worst of the worst. S huge threat.

Doesn't make sense.

The debate might be heading towards more reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and an international media organisation and posters here defend the right of a male to get their cock out in front of women children in a spa while castigating the women who object.

The debate might be heading towards a more reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and people who work for international media organisations and posters here claim that the lesbians who have been coerced into sex by transwomen are making it up.

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and posters here ignore every single shred of evidence of harm and repeat “it’ll never happen!”

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see women approached by the police, lose their jobs, need personal security to protect them, all for stating reality.

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see another heartbreaking account of another detransition, while the gender clinics plough on regardless with a medical affirmative pathway that does irrevocable harm, while ignoring the mountain of evidence for this and ignoring the “nuance” of the presentation of these children and see activists and posters here ignoring this harm.

The debate might be heading towards a reasonable discussion, then you’ll see a man holding a “We like jokes!” sign as a reasonable protest have his signed ripped from him, smashed, attempt to have him dealt with as though he was carrying a weapon, then have a TRA scream “repent motherfucker!” in his face 13 times.

Not once has any famous activist acknowledged any of the above and said “yeah, actually, that was a bit shit”. None of the regular TRA posters here do either. They defend it. They defend this sort of thing. So it’s no wonder the “tone” of debate might seem to have changed when you have posters with the audacity to defend a male getting their cock out - subsequently charged with indecent exposure - on one side, and the rest of posters who will not let such gaslighting offensiveness go by unchallenged.

What’s everyone supposed to do? Say sweetly “oh I’m sorry to be a bit challenging to your viewpoint, and I think we could discuss this reasonably, but do you think you might want to reconsider your view that it’s okay for this male to their cock out in front of women and children, perhaps, might be wrong? Excuse me if that sounds rude ”

GTF.

@MiladyBerserko

I swear to God, there was a thread almost exactly like this a few years ago, right down to the demands for 'nuanced' argument.

What part of lesbians having the right to refuse cock requires 'nuanced' argument? What part of talking about the injustice about locking up rapists with women in prisons demands 'nuanced' argument? Fuck that.

What is this nuanced argument? Is it where we play nice and don't object? What is the objectionable 'tone' of these threads? Is it women saying fuck right off to the wholesale colonisation of women's rights and words, because I AM saying fuck right off and I really really want the tone of that fuck off to be perfectly fucking understood.

Of FFS get of the fence and stop being ambiguous about where you stand 😂.

Seriously, I feel similar.

Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb in my experience on the subject of gender identity politics.

I've tried to find common ground, build bridges but it's not just rebuffed but ridiculed and demonised.

Where to go from there?

I don't hate/dislike/am phobic towards trans people.

I am however firmly of the opinion that gender ideology is harmful both to individuals and at a societal level.

Oh I know BreadInCaptivity but the tone policing does my fucking head in.

Marion Miller almost had to sell her house and was in danger of going to jail for having similar rants and for posting fucking ribbon pictures. Lush are encouraging young girls to damage their bodies and their health with binders and we are supposed to applaud this?

The pronoun badges is part of the entire ideology and we should have fucking learned by now that they don't let us pick and choose which bits of the ideology we can choose. There is no fucking nuance in this ideology, it's total and absolute capitulation else we are bigots.

I'm saying No. No nuance, no politeness, fuck off.

@CheeseMmmm

'I find myself moving slowly in the same direction as well but I still push back against the women who are vehemently anti-men and anti-childbearing, because that's not how I feel.'

This is on Facebook I assume? What sort of groups?

I was invited to a load of closed/ secret groups on FB at one point. Yes there are some ideas that are to me pretty... ???!!!

I don't remember man hating though, a lot of separatists though!

Are a lot of them USA based groups? That's what I found.

Really interesting! (Sorry this is a sidetrack!).

In the end those with extreme views in feminism have zero mainstream influence etc. There's no let's get violent etc. Talk about how to defend yes.

Compared to other groups with extreme members they're.. well. Fluffy in comparison!

I stopped bothering in the end not my scene. That's always an option sometimes you end up feeling invested though!

Yes, it's generally on FB although I'm seeing it a bit on Twitter as well (not groups, obvs, just people I follow).

The groups are all defined as gender critical and full of people from all walks and countries - some are hard rightwing religious types, some are disenfranchised left wing voters, some are bewildered women, some are true radical feminists who think we should have nothing to do with men At All, and lots of others in between.

Random threads that come up regularly involve "should women have children with men/at all?" and "what are your political leanings - is everyone alt right?" and "where are we all from?" so that's how I know about the diversity.

The children threads get very heated, as they always do when people who have had children voluntarily come up against people who are vehemently against having children, or actively dislike-to-the-point-of-hating small children.

I stay in them because there are enough people in there who are enough in alignment with my GC views that it's worth it, and good information comes through from different countries too.

There's another one I'm in that is more about ridiculing trans people (I don't like the bashing and don't participate, and speak up against it) - but that group is also one where they post a lot of stuff about desisters and questioners, which is useful in its own right.

But we get a lot of newly peaked people coming in, asking questions, finding common ground - and if we stick to those topics then they're still all useful too.

I think that's one thing that is often "missed" - being GC is across the board politically, socially and economically. The TRAs like to label us as white middle aged right wing women - but that's so far from the truth overall.

@NotBadConsidering

The debate might be heading towards more reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and an international media organisation and posters here defend the right of a male to get their cock out in front of women children in a spa while castigating the women who object.

The debate might be heading towards a more reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and people who work for international media organisations and posters here claim that the lesbians who have been coerced into sex by transwomen are making it up.

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see multiple people including famous activists and posters here ignore every single shred of evidence of harm and repeat “it’ll never happen!”

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see women approached by the police, lose their jobs, need personal security to protect them, all for stating reality.

The debate might be heading towards reasonable discussion, then you’ll see another heartbreaking account of another detransition, while the gender clinics plough on regardless with a medical affirmative pathway that does irrevocable harm, while ignoring the mountain of evidence for this and ignoring the “nuance” of the presentation of these children and see activists and posters here ignoring this harm.

The debate might be heading towards a reasonable discussion, then you’ll see a man holding a “We like jokes!” sign as a reasonable protest have his signed ripped from him, smashed, attempt to have him dealt with as though he was carrying a weapon, then have a TRA scream “repent motherfucker!” in his face 13 times.

Not once has any famous activist acknowledged any of the above and said “yeah, actually, that was a bit shit”. None of the regular TRA posters here do either. They defend it. They defend this sort of thing. So it’s no wonder the “tone” of debate might seem to have changed when you have posters with the audacity to defend a male getting their cock out - subsequently charged with indecent exposure - on one side, and the rest of posters who will not let such gaslighting offensiveness go by unchallenged.

What’s everyone supposed to do? Say sweetly “oh I’m sorry to be a bit challenging to your viewpoint, and I think we could discuss this reasonably, but do you think you might want to reconsider your view that it’s okay for this male to their cock out in front of women and children, perhaps, might be wrong? Excuse me if that sounds rude ”

GTF.

Yep, all of this.

The balance of what is "accepted" on either side is ludicrous - TRAs can go all out in threatening and violent behaviour, including physical assault, and might get a slap on the wrist.
GC women, on the other hand, can't hang a fucking ribbon on a fence without being arrested, hauled before the courts, hounded on social media etc etc.

No balance at all.

Even Doctors involved in gender clinics speak out about the abuses and are ignored! Anyone who speaks out about it is ignored, or bad things happen to them.

Whereas it's hard to even get death threats removed from social media platforms when they're aimed AT anyone who isn't a full TRA or ally.

I don't think I could bother with all that!

With that range of posters the children ones must be an utter shitshow!

Don't loads of them leave? Even in closed groups that were for 'radfems' only, the children stuff led to loads of splintering!

That's so interesting. Just totally fascinating really!

As someone who is more concerned about the effects of the trans ideology on children, the trouble with being kind with pronouns is that we are helping to create the pretence that it is really possible to change sex. Resulting in more mutilated youngsters. So being kind is being harmful

A lot of people have come to see gender ideology and the science of gender and almost wholly on the wrong track. I don't think that's because they are anti-trans, I think it's a function of analysis. But it can look like a lack of sympathy, when someone says, no, actually I don't think it's a good idea to approach the problem as if it was scientifically evidenced. For example.

There's always been certain people, OTOH, who are happy to accuse people who disagree with them on the boards of being trolls, or men, or secret child abusers, or whatever, and mainly those are just the kinds of people who will do that about any subject. Either it's a dishonest rhetorical technique, or it's because they can't imagine that anyone would disagree with them unless they had evil motives. I'm not convinced this is more common than it used to be.

There are also people who will attack, in a very personal way, people who are probably posting in good faith because they say some wrong thing. They feel justified in doing this, even when it becomes evident that the poster was completely authentic, because other bad posters have sometimes been inauthentic. And somehow objecting to this is expecting them to take on some terrible emotional labour to educate others.

But overall, I just think that there is less and less evidential basis for theories of gender or identity politics generally.