Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

People are ignoring my jokes, and thus not validating my identity as a comic genius.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

People are ignoring my jokes, and thus not validating my identity as a comic genius.

That’s my line.

(Ok, normally it is WHY IS NO ONE LISTENING TO ME but I mean what you said)

And damn it why does no one realise you exist to validate my ego

See you women who have minds of your own

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

RedDogsBeg

To be honest I've read all your postsjuliecaand all I can glean from them is that you intensely dislike Posie Parker and think we should too and send her to purgatory and never say her name again

I haven't got much in for dinner tonight, so can we put the dinner date off until next week?

I liked it Purgatory.

If that helps?

No, you exist to validate my ego!

Hmm, this is a bit of an impasse, isn't it?

FlyingOink Is it the small but loud community that got laws changed in their favour with no public debate? No, it was the "reasonable, professional" activists. For all the violence that hentai catgirls who film themselves masturbating in women's toilets talk about, those individuals haven't changed the law, trained the judiciary and the police and the schools and the state broadcaster. It was the "reasonable, professional" types who did that.

^
This

BloodinGutters Even without the violence of tra’s, the ideology in itself reinforces regressive stereotypes that harm women, the ideology removes women’s rights, the ideology adds yet another loophole for predatory males to harm women by identifying as trans and getting into single sex spaces, the ideology removes safeguards for children and sterilises gnc kids, the ideology is homophobic by its very definition.

It’s not about the individuals involved, even the ones telling us to die in a grease fire, it’s the ideology itself that is incompatible with women and girls rights.

Exactly, we cannot have rights and dignity for women and girls and be seen as human beings who happen to be female without displacing the ideology. Trying to right things that have arisen as a consequence of gender ideology being adopted in law and policy is addressing the symptom, the root problem is the ideology, it must be uprooted and discarded in my opinion.

[quote julieca]@TimOTey I have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles.
No need to quote Dworkin at me, I have read most of what she has written. And yes she is right there. But who you fight for is fundamentally different from who you fight and ally with.[/quote]
That isn't the basic objection of any conservatives I know. Their basic objection is that they don't think it's possible to change sex, and they think pretending people can is bad for everyone.

Most of them aren't nearly as strict about sex roles as many progressives seem to imagine either, though they do tend to put a lot of value on family life.

Sorry Purg am a bit slow today

Repent has validated me! Like Tinkerbell, I'm going to live!

Totes babes. Mwah!

@FlyingOink

foxgoosefinch that was really interesting, I thought julieca's post you quoted from was good but I see that it was perhaps oversimplified. Do you think there are any specific lesbian healthcare needs/requirements?

I think it is important for GPs to be aware of up to date smear information.

It's a complex issue. As a young woman I was actually refused smears on the grounds of not having ever slept with a man. That is medically pretty accurate -- HPV is the causative virus for 98.something of cervical cancers, and those which are non-HPV-dependent are rare and slow-growing. So in practice most young lesbians who have not slept with men are at an extremely low risk of getting cervical cancer.

But, there are a very few which are not HPV-dependent (though mostly appearing in older women). And it's now recognised that HPV can very occasionally be transmitted by fingers, etc., which wasn't thought of earlier. And also, it's the case that women who identify as lesbian but have had any sexual activity with men can still have a small risk of having had contracted HPV, even without penetration.

As with other health issues, the NHS prefers to take a blanket line, rather than to get into the detail compare eg. pregnancy diet advice so they prefer to now say you should have a smear anyway than to get into evaluating complex risks. So it is true that lesbian women should probably have a smear test every so often, though if they have had little or no sexual activity with men (and none since a previous smear), there is still a theoretical risk of HPV so it's now preferred to be safe rather than not.

But, the crucial thing is, GPs should be alert to this and speaking to patients about it. Just like they should be speaking to women patients about smears more generally. It should be better known, but I'm just not convinced that an LGBT healthcare person whose job is likely to be taken up massively with the T, let's face it is a good way of doing this.

I do think that lesbian and bisexual women's healthcare is something that is part of women losing out more generally and lumping them in with the GT only leads to women losing out. Gay men have very different needs to L or T screening and provision for PrEP for example - and T is a different thing again. Whereas IMO lesbian and bi women (even for example IVF issues for lesbian women) have more in common with the needs of and poorer care given to women in general, than with the requirements of G or T.

Hang about, were clapping again?

@Artichokeleaves

I would say I don’t deny a believer of gender ideology exists

This is never properly explained. As far as I can work out:

People not au fait with the complex ideology think... obviously you exist, there you are! And are very confused.

I think the meaning is though, 'if you don't validate and reflect back the person that I wish to be and feel I am internally, then then the real me can't exist'.

Happy to be corrected on that.

The thing is: this is a lot to be demanding of total strangers who don't themselves hold the same beliefs, or want to have to participate in them, or see it as their responsibility to provide this on request regardless of them as a person.

So the reply still is pretty much: you do you and that's fine. But I am not going to get involved, and my asking you to do the 'and let live' bit back to me in return is not an act of aggression or something I'm going to put up with you getting annoyed with me about.

This is the unacceptable bit.

I have thought about this existence thing a bit. I've come to the conclusion that for many people it's just a reflexive response that isn't thought out.

But I now think that for some, it's the idea that they have some kind of real opposite sex essence that is based in the material or real world in some way. Their view is that if you say someone is not truly trans, that it is a mental issue or even a treatment for a mental issue, you are denying the existence of transness as a class of people.

The problem with that IMO is that while we can all see there are people who have certain feelings, it is very much up for discussion what the origin of them is or cause. And sure, that could seem challenging to people who have invested in it as a form of identity.

I've seen gay men criticize Douglas Murray, similarly, for saying that there isn't any scientific consensus that male homosexuality is biologically based or innate or that other things like socialization play no role. And he basically says, I understand where you are coming from, but we need to be honest about what we know, even if it challenges our sense of self.

For people who struggle with sense of self generally this kind of reflection is a lot harder.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

RedDogsBeg

To be honest I've read all your postsjuliecaand all I can glean from them is that you intensely dislike Posie Parker and think we should too and send her to purgatory and never say her name again

I haven't got much in for dinner tonight, so can we put the dinner date off until next week?

I reckon Posie could scarf a Pizza, perhaps order takeaway?

Yes LobsterNapkin I agree. I am a lesbian woman and was never a fan of the ‘born this way’ argument for gay acceptance. Some gay men and lesbian women have always believed it was innate and some have always believed otherwise, the born this way’ argument for social acceptance was not used at the beginning of gay liberation, it seems to have become a political response in the 80’s to gay men and the aids crisis. I do think the ‘born this way’ argument has opened the door to the ‘born in wrong body’ argument, as many concluded that being gay is a kind of intersex condition, and a gay man has a female brain stuck in the wrong body. I think this is one of the reasons many think that it is like gay rights. The argument should have been it makes no different if homosexuality innate or part of wider development, it should be socially accepted as it harms no one else, and makes some people happy. The same cannot be argued for gender ideology, as it does harm others.

* I do think that lesbian and bisexual women's healthcare is something that is part of women losing out more generally -- and lumping them in with the GT only leads to women losing out*

It is also not being helped by inaccurate collection of data. I have been asked to complete a NHS Scotland survey in which I am asked to state my gender male/female/other. I phoned up the helpline to ask what this question meant as it was obviously not asking about my sex , as the NHS would surely be aware that there are only 2 sexes. The young lady who answered did her best to answer, while not answering and eventually said I could leave it out. I expressed astonishment that my sex would not be a very important part of the survey and she said she would pass on my complaint.

@Shedmistress

Resistance, can you give examples of this backlash on here that the OP has a point about? I mean has anyone suggested this backlash and if so, in what context?

I wasn't really referring to specific examples on here, just that in general when you're getting angry about this stuff (and don't get me wrong, I feel livid every time I hear myself referred to as a uturus haver, I mean it isn't even good grammar) it's easy to find yourself feeling antipathy towards trans people in general and you have to check yourself a bit that's all. I think it's another example of how dangerous the ideologues are, that they almost risk creating 'transphobes' by accusing everyone who disagrees with them of being one. I never want to become the person they think I am. I don't think OP is wrong to reflect a bit... anger comes and goes but beyond that I want to retain some compassion for people who are genuinely in distress and not necessarily part of this movement. But I also get the need to rant and rave when your rights are being ridden roughshod over

I am a great believer in facts. Which includes statistics, which are an incredibly important tool to make objective decisions rather than be ruled by lobbies, power or bias.

It’s one of the main ways we are going to have a healthier, fairer society, to look at what is really going on otherwise it is all ‘but I’m sadder than you’ or ‘I’m harmed more, I need more than you therefore… ‘

That is no way to make decisions. This is why, for example, I believe that hospitals need to revisit their rushed through policies to let men into women’s wards. There is ACTUAL DATA that mixed wards mean higher rates of harassment for women. That should never have been thrown out in favour of EMOTIONAL LOBBYING which is not objective at all.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

No, you exist to validate my ego!

Hmm, this is a bit of an impasse, isn't it?

Yes let’s brainstorm.

WWTWD?

Nope I got nothing. (That won’t get deleted)

@Helleofabore

Hang about, were clapping again?

You stopped?

No wonder I've been feeling all faint and woozy.

I wasn't really referring to specific examples on here

This thread is about the tone on here and you said that the OP had a point? Am I missing something?

I stopped Arabella. I am sorry. My hands were bloody stumps!

foxgoosefinch thank you

what is really going on otherwise it is all ‘but I’m sadder than you’ or ‘I’m harmed more, I need more than you therefore
This is the actual argument though. "I'm sad so I should get what I want. You're sad? Stop weaponising your trauma"

I do think the ‘born this way’ argument has opened the door to the ‘born in wrong body’ argument, as many concluded that being gay is a kind of intersex condition, and a gay man has a female brain stuck in the wrong body.
I think "born this way" is really useful. It's probably just too simple for a lot of educated people, but in the same way we addressed other prejudices by simply stating "some people are different from you and that's just how they are", we could get through to people that homosexual behaviours aren't just to deliberately antagonise the public. That we are born only being able to love and fancy the same sex. It worked quite well, and it's still needed now.
The argument that people should be allowed to do what they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone is harder to win when some people have deeply held religious beliefs that having sex with someone of the same sex is literally the work of the devil. Arguing that we can't help it works better than arguing we should do as we please.
Thinking about other places on earth where the latter argument just wouldn't hold any water, there's still a place for "born this way".

I'd like to see more on it too. Why is there a correlation between gender non-conformity and homosexuality? Not sensible shoes and a lack of makeup but actual female masculinity and male femininity? Why do we see this in the literal "only gay in the village", in countries with no gay representation? Is it learned behaviour? Who from? Are butch lesbians more homosexual than feminine ones, is there a difference physically or psychologically?

Is there a gay gene, do all homosexuals even have it?

Obviously the next question is "does it matter? " or even "should it matter?" but I personally would like to know if I really was born this way, and if I wasn't, I'd like to know what caused it, even if I'd never change anything.

@FlyingOink

foxgoosefinch thank you

what is really going on otherwise it is all ‘but I’m sadder than you’ or ‘I’m harmed more, I need more than you therefore
This is the actual argument though. "I'm sad so I should get what I want. You're sad? Stop weaponising your trauma"

I do think the ‘born this way’ argument has opened the door to the ‘born in wrong body’ argument, as many concluded that being gay is a kind of intersex condition, and a gay man has a female brain stuck in the wrong body.
I think "born this way" is really useful. It's probably just too simple for a lot of educated people, but in the same way we addressed other prejudices by simply stating "some people are different from you and that's just how they are", we could get through to people that homosexual behaviours aren't just to deliberately antagonise the public. That we are born only being able to love and fancy the same sex. It worked quite well, and it's still needed now.
The argument that people should be allowed to do what they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone is harder to win when some people have deeply held religious beliefs that having sex with someone of the same sex is literally the work of the devil. Arguing that we can't help it works better than arguing we should do as we please.
Thinking about other places on earth where the latter argument just wouldn't hold any water, there's still a place for "born this way".

I'd like to see more on it too. Why is there a correlation between gender non-conformity and homosexuality? Not sensible shoes and a lack of makeup but actual female masculinity and male femininity? Why do we see this in the literal "only gay in the village", in countries with no gay representation? Is it learned behaviour? Who from? Are butch lesbians more homosexual than feminine ones, is there a difference physically or psychologically?

Is there a gay gene, do all homosexuals even have it?

Obviously the next question is "does it matter? " or even "should it matter?" but I personally would like to know if I really was born this way, and if I wasn't, I'd like to know what caused it, even if I'd never change anything.

I appreciate there are complexities to the born this way or not argument, even if I don’t necessarily understand them exactly.

However I think it’s generally the accepted view that heterosexuality ‘just is’. And it’s really important to ensure that homosexuality or bisexuality are seen equally in that way.

No one ever asks how long have people been heterosexual. No one asks why we are heterosexual. It’s just accepted ‘we just are’.

Not my place to reflect on others experience or understanding of their own sexuality, but at the same time I have daughters. Gnc ones. And, if they aren’t straight, I don’t want them asked when they became a lesbian, as if it was a fancy new style of coat the switched to wearing their last year of school.

Someone wondering those types of questions about themselves is up to them, but it’s just not ok to apply that to others.

I’ve never had anyone ask when I became straight. I have had people ask why I still like men despite being a victim of them as a kid. While I’ve wondered that about myself, about my own sexuality in the ‘how am I stuck being straight’ type of way, it’s definitely vulgar coming from others. It has the same type of feel as the idea women identify our way into oppression. As if we must like this otherwise we would choose otherwise. When I can’t.

I saw Blanchard described autogynephilia as "erotic target location error" for example.

I'm a lesbian and I've been out and proud for a long time. But I'm open to learning whether something like this is the case for me. I know that sounds inflammatory, I also know that the fact I can even think about it is because I'm incredibly lucky to live when and where I do.

Where I think it differs from the "lady brain" argument is that gendered brains require a huge framework of gender norms to be firmly established in society and largely agreed on, so that one man's penchant for handbags can be seen as indicative of his womanliness. Likewise if he likes kittens or whatever. The "lady brain" argument requires that whole structure to be in place, and it's that structure, including supposedly innate female brains, that was used to subjugate women for centuries. So a man deciding to opt in to that based on stereotypes is quite insulting. Whereas if it turns out my homosexuality is just some form of neurodivergence then it doesn't reinforce any sexist beliefs about pink brains being inherently more suited to wiping arses.

Also unlike men who claim womanhood I'd gladly have my noggin scanned to see what they could find, because I'm not emotionally attached to the concept of nature or of nurture, I'm just curious.

I'm more than happy to be told to fuck off though, it's just something I think about from time to time.

It has the same type of feel as the idea women identify our way into oppression. As if we must like this otherwise we would choose otherwise. When I can’t. well yes, that would suggest it is innate, regardless of the cause of it. As much as people used to argue nobody would choose to be gay, there's an argument that some women would never choose to be straight.

I also agree there are some odd questions we get asked. Some rude, some inappropriate, some well-meaning but clumsy, some very politically correct but scathing.