Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch there is lots of research on all of this.
Have you been a lesbian for a long time? Because if yes I am surprised this is all news to you.[/quote]
Oh my!

Maybe lesbians, like other "LGBT" people, are a rather diverse group?!?

What "Lesbian-specific" service do you think I require? Do the LGBT health coordinators hang out at lesbian social clubs handing out leaflets? Am I supposed to get my healthcare at a special "oppressed gay people clinic"? What about bisexual women? What health needs do they have that are "LGBT"?

Why on earth is any of that the same as accessing mental health support for gender issues or sex reassignment?

Maybe lumping us all together is not efficient use of money, and better could be spent on services specific to each group?

@julieca

Yeah I am a pragmatist. But I don't think it means that strategy does not matter. It is really easy for well-meaning activism to have negative consequences.

As we have seen!

I would say the transgender movement is steeped in the appearance of traditional roles ie long hair/skirt/make up = woman and short hair/no make up/masculine clothes = man

However I doubt very much that TW conform to the gendered expectations imposed on women in terms of for example the provision of child care & caring for elderly relative or as the holder of “wife work” in a relationship.

I would say I don’t deny a believer of gender ideology exists, anymore than I deny a believer of MRA ideology or a fundamental christianity exists, I just don’t believe in those belief systems

Exactly this re the "you don't want trans people to exist!!" arguments.

Buddhists exist, and I fight for their religious freedoms to hold their beliefs. I just don't believe in them myself. I believe Catholics exist, but I don't have to believe what they believe. And they shouldn't get to impose their beliefs on, say, abortion, on the rest of us. But they are very much entitled to hold them.

@Terfydactyl

That’s true

I dislike people on principle

It’s really just not good enough that human humans take priority
when everyone knows that the bestest humans are the canine ones

It's like we are twins, except I just dislike people. No principles involved, I'm just a surly fucker.
The bestest humans however are both canine and feline. And I'll not have any felinephobia around me.

Well can’t be twins then, I’m a snarky fucker. Maybe sisters.

No felinephobia here. But my caninehuman is felineblind. He will see felinehumans the same way he sees caninehumans and humanhumans.

So your felinehumans must be prepared to run very very fast (greyhound/saluki fast), have crotches sniffed, and have a caninehumanblanket for all naps.

They’re wagging tails? Well he thinks that’s just great.

[quote julieca]@PurgatoryOfPotholes It depends. I also know a young lesbian in a women's hostel who was bullied out of it by the other young women. In fairness it was a long time ago when lots more people were anti-lesbian.[/quote]
I fear that in today, in a hostel pitched at LGBT, as if it were a monolith, a young lesbian would be more likely to be subjected to lesbophobic bullying, and would be less likely to have staff and key workers who knew how to address the issues of consent, abusive relationships and boundaries with her and anyone bullying her.

Also, you're being very patronising to foxgoose

julieca
I remember Stonewall doing a survey on lesbians' health needs, back before they gave up on us entirely.
I don't disagree that there is a need to look into these things. But it doesn't always translate into specific requirements for lesbians, and lesbians themselves (as has been demonstrated in the last few posts) might not agree with the findings of a particular survey.
If inequalities are discovered and put right, that's a positive outcome overall. But in advocating it's easy to generalise with regard to a group.
And in some cases the outcomes then work against your core demographic or adversely affect other groups.

The GRA 2004 is a perfect example of incomplete data, assumptions and rushed legislation in the name of equality, for example. It has had far-reaching negative consequences for women.

@foxgoosefinch I have obviously upset you. I did not mean to.
Its not about going to lesbian clubs. It is about how services are provided.
For example, providing clear information about whether lesbians need smears and why. Some lesbians think they don't as this was at one time the official stance.
Its changing with younger people, but older lesbians are far less likely to be in touch with their families. So do befriending schemes and other schemes aimed at older people meet the needs of this group?
Lots of lesbian and gay people report going back into the closet in care homes because of open anti-lesbian and gay comments. How should this be tackled in a systematic way?
Plenty of psychiatrists were trained at a time when being a lesbian was seen as a sign of immature development - Freudian. Lesbians still report issues with psychiatrists and mental health wards. How could this be better tackled?
Substance misuse is higher, are substance misuse programmes meeting the needs of this group? A lot of substance misuse programmes are mixed-sex and do not meet the needs of women well and probably lesbians even less. Maybe there is a need for more single-sex programmes?
Heath needs are not met well by just treating everyone as the same.

notYourMumsnet

Fucking brilliant, Arabella

@MumsnetHQ can you get this made up into mugs? Cos I'd buy a whole crockery set of that.

I had a man in his 30s, who works in the arts, who has female relatives to whom their Muslim faith is very important, tell me, WITHOUT BLINKING, that his elderly aunts' needs to be in penis free spaces were "old fashioned and conservative"

"and also worthy of respect, and, importantly, protected in law. Forcing your aunts into a space with a male person who has a penis would make you Islamphobic, ageist, misogynist and no different from other men who refuse to pay attention to a woman's "no", you know, like your average rapist"

He fucking blinked by the time I'd done with him.

@FlyingOink I totally agree with you that an LGBT health survey is too broad a demographic group. Any criticisms made on that basis I would agree with.

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch I have obviously upset you. I did not mean to.
Its not about going to lesbian clubs. It is about how services are provided.
For example, providing clear information about whether lesbians need smears and why. Some lesbians think they don't as this was at one time the official stance.
Its changing with younger people, but older lesbians are far less likely to be in touch with their families. So do befriending schemes and other schemes aimed at older people meet the needs of this group?
Lots of lesbian and gay people report going back into the closet in care homes because of open anti-lesbian and gay comments. How should this be tackled in a systematic way?
Plenty of psychiatrists were trained at a time when being a lesbian was seen as a sign of immature development - Freudian. Lesbians still report issues with psychiatrists and mental health wards. How could this be better tackled?
Substance misuse is higher, are substance misuse programmes meeting the needs of this group? A lot of substance misuse programmes are mixed-sex and do not meet the needs of women well and probably lesbians even less. Maybe there is a need for more single-sex programmes?
Heath needs are not met well by just treating everyone as the same.[/quote]
Good post

@PurgatoryOfPotholes I do not mean to be patronising at all. I am trying to answer the questions raised in a polite manner.

[quote julieca]@FlyingOink I totally agree with you that an LGBT health survey is too broad a demographic group. Any criticisms made on that basis I would agree with.[/quote]
You are the one mentioning the survey in the first place by saying how Kellie Jay was mean about it and now you totally agree with her ridicule of it.

I would say I don’t deny a believer of gender ideology exists

This is never properly explained. As far as I can work out:

People not au fait with the complex ideology think... obviously you exist, there you are! And are very confused.

I think the meaning is though, 'if you don't validate and reflect back the person that I wish to be and feel I am internally, then then the real me can't exist'.

Happy to be corrected on that.

The thing is: this is a lot to be demanding of total strangers who don't themselves hold the same beliefs, or want to have to participate in them, or see it as their responsibility to provide this on request regardless of them as a person.

So the reply still is pretty much: you do you and that's fine. But I am not going to get involved, and my asking you to do the 'and let live' bit back to me in return is not an act of aggression or something I'm going to put up with you getting annoyed with me about.

This is the unacceptable bit.

[quote julieca]@PurgatoryOfPotholes It depends. I also know a young lesbian in a women's hostel who was bullied out of it by the other young women. In fairness it was a long time ago when lots more people were anti-lesbian.[/quote]
BINGO

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch there is lots of research on all of this.
Have you been a lesbian for a long time? Because if yes I am surprised this is all news to you.[/quote]
WTAF!!!

Sophoclesthefox

Totally agree with this. Any alliances are to achieve a certain aim. Any binary question, such as "should children be given puberty blockers" will have all kinds of people on the side of "yes" or "no".
Norman Tebbit might have raised relevant concerns about the GRA 2004 but I don't have to agree with him on anything else, and it's childish to suggest otherwise.

Exactly.

I’m bored of this line of debate, as it has been periodically resurfacing since the porn and prostitution debates of the 80s. I’m a pragmatist. I want to get shit done, way more than I want to maintain ideological purity. Sometimes, my aims and those of people on the right will coincide. So what?

When it comes to knowing that sex exists, it matters, and children ought to be protected from making irrevocable changes to their bodies, the church of who agrees with that is incredibly broad, and will inevitably include a fair few people I don’t agree with.

So what?

Also, people on the right aren’t necessarily evil, you know. I cant stand that kind of lazy thinking of left = good and right = bad, probably because I’ve done it myself enough times.

Would also note the absolute lack of reciprocation or willingness to extend the same kind of social care and courtesy in return to female people, who for example cannot use mixed sex spaces or want to be homosexual.

So there's a whole 'this is a special group who have a level of privilege in what they can request of others that no one else is entitled to, and they have no responsibility to extend what they want from others to others'.

Which again tends to make female people feel.... not your mum. No.

Would also note the absolute lack of reciprocation or willingness to extend the same kind of social care and courtesy in return to female people

The demands of the two groups are mutually exclusive and we'd do well to remember that. A space isn't a "little bit mixed sex", it's either single sex or it's mixed sex. If one group wants one, and the other group wants the other, there's no way to meet in the middle.

Julia lesbians are women. Their health needs are the health needs of women.

All of the things you describe, other than "going back into the closet" are experiences of women, regardless of our sexuality.

The "going back into the closet" thing is a corker though, I'll give you that.

The problems that lesbians face in healthcare would include the heteronormative approach in women's health. Which is almost entirely focussed on "can you get a penis into that vagina?". This is an issue for all women because our sexual function does not require a penis or penetration. Sadly, science has been slow to see us beyond a place for penises to go - again, this is an issue for all women, regardless of our sexual orientation.

If 3% of the population demanded 51% of the population each give them £5, it won't happen, unless the 51% is compelled to pay £5 by law.

Compelling by law has taken place in plenty of places. It doesn't matter if 10% of the 51% is happy to fork over a fiver. It doesn't matter if 1% of the 51% are happy to stump up fifty quid.

It's still taking something from a group of people who never agreed to it, and there's nothing in return. The 51% just lose their money and that's that. Nothing is being offered for the £5.

And then we get to the fact that actually, it's way more than a fiver for some women. It's their sporting career or their physical safety in prison, or their social life torpedoed because they turned the wrong man down and got cancelled.

For some women it's every penny they have, that's being demanded. For those who don't mind handing over £5 it's nothing. But in every case, there's nothing in return.

What's the compromise? The 51% agree to pay £3? No.

@Shedmistress No I agree with the criticism of the methodology of the survey. I am not ridiculing the idea that lesbians have specific health needs.

Sorry that was to artichoke

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria that simply isnt true. If you are straight you know you need a cervical smear.

@BloodinGutters why bingo?