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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

999 replies

ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 21:58

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

OP posts:
FlyingOink · 10/11/2021 14:53

I have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles.

So do I. Luckily two things are true: nobody has to "ally with" anyone, and she never said that.

julieca · 10/11/2021 14:53

Yes you are misunderstanding. It is about strategy.
I agree with everyone here about the substance of objections. I disagree strongly that it is fine to ally with anyone in fighting back against this.
I think it leads to the lack of challenge of frankly anti-lesbian and gay stuff I have seen. For example Kellie Jay ridiculing the idea of a survey asking about health needs for LGBT people.

Terfydactyl · 10/11/2021 14:54

That’s true

I dislike people on principle

It’s really just not good enough that human humans take priority
when everyone knows that the bestest humans are the canine ones

It's like we are twins, except I just dislike people. No principles involved, I'm just a surly fucker.
The bestest humans however are both canine and feline. And I'll not have any felinephobia around me.

julieca · 10/11/2021 14:55

@FlyingOink

Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

That makes it sound like they killed her. Maybe don't describe decisions as fatal errors when the person is dead, it's misleading. She died in her sleep aged 58 and it had fuck all to do with who she spoke to, allied with or agreed with.

Yes I know she dies at 58 and it had nothing to do with her political work. No one in the public knows how she died.
foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 14:56

I didn't read that as suggesting that it was you derailing, @julieca. I assumed it was in reference to eg. the late night TRA drive-by accusations of causing WiSpa violence and suchlike.

I don't think your posts are in any way derailing. They are always about the issues at hand and different versions of feminism, as far as I know.

julieca · 10/11/2021 14:57

Thanks @foxgoosefinch
I am posting in between work so am aware my attention is not 100%

Sophoclesthefox · 10/11/2021 14:58

@FlyingOink

Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

That makes it sound like they killed her. Maybe don't describe decisions as fatal errors when the person is dead, it's misleading. She died in her sleep aged 58 and it had fuck all to do with who she spoke to, allied with or agreed with.

Exactly.

I’m bored of this line of debate, as it has been periodically resurfacing since the porn and prostitution debates of the 80s. I’m a pragmatist. I want to get shit done, way more than I want to maintain ideological purity. Sometimes, my aims and those of people on the right will coincide. So what?

When it comes to knowing that sex exists, it matters, and children ought to be protected from making irrevocable changes to their bodies, the church of who agrees with that is incredibly broad, and will inevitably include a fair few people I don’t agree with.

So what?

Also, people on the right aren’t necessarily evil, you know. I cant stand that kind of lazy thinking of left = good and right = bad, probably because I’ve done it myself enough times.

TimOTey · 10/11/2021 15:02

have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles

I doubt women's objections to the transgender movement is an objection to individuals moving out of traditional roles. The objections are far more important than that. Safeguarding and child protection springs to mind.

The transgender movement is seeped in traditional roles. Much of it wouldn't function without those stereotypes of what men and women should do. Trans people often don't want to move out of those roles do they. They want to embrace them. If you have a problem with people sticking to traditional roles, then I'm surprised you don't object to that?

Personally I don't care what lives people lead as long as no harm is caused to others. If people (whoever they are) want to live in traditional roles then that's entirely up to them. That wouldn't put me off considering them as an ally or a friend. It's about individuals. Not group think.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 15:03

@julieca

Yes you are misunderstanding. It is about strategy. I agree with everyone here about the substance of objections. I disagree strongly that it is fine to ally with anyone in fighting back against this. I think it leads to the lack of challenge of frankly anti-lesbian and gay stuff I have seen. For example Kellie Jay ridiculing the idea of a survey asking about health needs for LGBT people.
Well as a young lesbian my partner and I used to chortle at the idea that lesbians or bisexual women had specific health needs that weren't just women's health needs. Gay men sometimes need specific health services; T people certainly do. But does lumping them all together actually make any sense? It is a valid question, not just evidence of being anti-gay.
Shedmistress · 10/11/2021 15:06

Kellie Jay did this, Kellie Jay said that.

It sounds like she put sand in your sandwiches and you never got over it.

Sophoclesthefox · 10/11/2021 15:09

Also, nobody here can answer for KJK/PP or indeed any other feminist. You’d need to take it up with them. Nobody here is slavishly following them and doing exactly what they’re told. Paying attention to someone, listening to them ,reading their books, following their social media doesn’t imply that you endorse everything they do. It’s a bit odd to think it does, or to say “a woman who isn’t here has attitudes about a topic that I don’t like” and expect any response except, “oh, OK”.

julieca · 10/11/2021 15:09

@foxgoosefinch it is about equality of outcomes. And yes lesbians as a group do have specific health needs. They are at far greater risk of poor mental health, substance misuse and have higher rates of breast cancer. They also have lower rates of cervical smears.
Of course it is not about physical bodies. It is about oppressed groups are treated, how they access or do not access healthcare, and the outcomes that has on health. That is why surveys look at what peoples experiences are, and start to identify what changes need to happen.
This is common research with oppressed groups. And ridiculing does at a minimum show a lack of understanding.

julieca · 10/11/2021 15:11

Yeah I am a pragmatist. But I don't think it means that strategy does not matter. It is really easy for well-meaning activism to have negative consequences.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 15:12

@julieca

I think peoples underlying values do matter. There are lots of conservative Christians who don't think you can change sex. I don't see them as my ally.
This is the problem with tribal politics. We should be focusing on the issues, on the arguments, not on which side it comes from as if there is only one type of ‘right’ side.

People’s values change plenty. Women have a range of values and they may change radically throughout life.

But we are still always women.

We still have common needs.

Tribal politics shuts down critical thinking. It’s partly what led to this mess in the first place.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 15:17

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Were you supposed to be jetting over to LA to organise it?

No need, they always take my calls.

You mean you didn’t use the power of #hivemind to exert influence?

It’s the latest in power politics don’t you know. According to the scold-a-lot posters who drop Grin

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 15:22

I am not sure that people in general think about what LGBT stands for, before they say it. Observing the usage, it seems to be treated as a synonym for either "gay men" or "trans". No-one really considers whether it will serve the L.

For example, people talk about hostels aimed at especially at solving LGBT homelessness. I used to live in a hostel myself, as a teenager. It was a women's-only hostel (no restrictions on sexuality), which has since been shut down, and specialised in offering support for young women's needs. I am not convinced that a young homeless teenage lesbian would be better off in a mixed sex hostel for gay men, bisexual men and males under the transgender umbrella than she would be in the hostel I used to live in.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 15:28

@TimOTey

prudencepuffin I totally agree. I don't agree with my friends on everything. What a boring world it would be if we did. Like a group think cult.

However, it's probably better that you direct that question to julieca As he/she/they seemed to think it wasn't possible. I was just responding to them.

On this board we all agree that woman=adult human female

And

That the only true religion is #church of Patti Smith and other rock goddesses.

Everything else is up for debate.

If the earth is flat, what constitutes a feminist parking crime, what dead animal makes up bjs toupee, whether we should get 5 or 10 daily portions of curly wurlys.

But never ever the first two sacred rules of feminism women’s rights:sex and gender board. Grin

ScrollingLeaves · 10/11/2021 15:31

“PurgatoryOfPotholes
I am not sure that people in general think about what LGBT stands for“

I think people in general have no idea other than that it is a nice rainbow and it is ‘good’ and that it would be wrong to question it.

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 15:32

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch it is about equality of outcomes. And yes lesbians as a group do have specific health needs. They are at far greater risk of poor mental health, substance misuse and have higher rates of breast cancer. They also have lower rates of cervical smears.
Of course it is not about physical bodies. It is about oppressed groups are treated, how they access or do not access healthcare, and the outcomes that has on health. That is why surveys look at what peoples experiences are, and start to identify what changes need to happen.
This is common research with oppressed groups. And ridiculing does at a minimum show a lack of understanding.[/quote]
You're telling me, a lesbian, about lesbians' mental health needs and substance abuse risk? Where do you get this information from?

Do you know anything about cervical smears for lesbians? (I do -- a lot. From the above, I'm not sure you do.)

Thank you so much for informing me, a professional woman in her forties, about my own oppression Hmm

julieca · 10/11/2021 15:34

@PurgatoryOfPotholes It depends. I also know a young lesbian in a women's hostel who was bullied out of it by the other young women. In fairness it was a long time ago when lots more people were anti-lesbian.

Wildheartsease · 10/11/2021 15:36

I am all for treating people in general with respect and curtesy. Kindness isn't just for transpeople.

However, it isn't good to see big companies simply buying into an ideology that is unkind to many... at the same time as denying anyone a voice on the subject.

In your example you mentioned that people could put their pronouns on and wear them proudly. I haven't heard that people who are trans are particularly keen on identifying themselves to strangers in this way.

-It does make them a target when they just want to get on with their own lives.

-t does link them with TRAs and, as we've seen, TRAs have views/behavious that trans and non-trans alike might not want to be associated with.

julieca · 10/11/2021 15:36

@foxgoosefinch there is lots of research on all of this.
Have you been a lesbian for a long time? Because if yes I am surprised this is all news to you.

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 15:41

@Shedmistress

Surely right wing/conservative women are women and so have a say in the definition of, you know, women?

Unless I am misunderstanding the argument here?

This ^^

I loath the idea of fighting on the same side as women like say, my own, who knowingly handed me over to be raped by every man in her life.

I can’t begin to describe how unbearable to think we might in fact be ‘ally’s’ on something’s. But I’m pretty sure she knows the world is round also.

We don’t get to draw a line about women who deserve a voice and those who don’t. If we draw a line, if we decide someone women aren’t allowed to be on women’s side, or aren’t allowed to speak on women’s rights, then that line will swiftly become something that is used against us. Men will move it further and further back until the women who deserve a voice number 0.

We can feel revulsion* against some of the women’s views who may well know what a woman is, while still ‘allying’ with them on women’s rights over self id.

*referring to my mother & other women who abuse children, not Christians or conservatives, but others can apply this to them if that suits

BloodinGutters · 10/11/2021 15:48

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Stopthisnow · 10/11/2021 15:48

They have made believing TWAW such a badge of progressive self image, and to consider that may not be true such a badge of transphobic hate, that many people who might otherwise engage and think critically just can’t get past it.

Once cognitive distance has been sown one either bunkers down, or it sparks one to think about things more. Obviously those that bunker down won’t move until it becomes impossible for them to do anything else. Others once they have doubts sown will start to think a bit, and question things over time, I have seen this with former female believers going back many, many years. For example, there was a young woman who had taken male hormones she then read a feminist book and after she thought about it for a time she left gender ideology and joined with feminists. I’ve seen many other similar examples of young women having the penny drop after being exposed to feminist’s counter arguments.

Basically, the argument about whether TWAW or not is the one that TRAs want to have because it’s the one they can frame with emotional arguments like “denying existence”, “a civil rights issue just like [x]” (where [x] is totally unrelated of course), “reducing women to biology”.

I don’t think this is true. I think those ridiculous arguments can be easily countered, someone arguing that ‘denying existence’ sounds off the beam anyway to most of the public. I would say I don’t deny a believer of gender ideology exists, anymore than I deny a believer of MRA ideology or a fundamental christianity exists, I just don’t believe in those belief systems and think they are regressive and misogynistic and here is why... The civil rights issue is also easily countered with no other advantaged/oppressor group claims to be a member of the group they disadvantage/oppressed, that would be a colonising tactic, not a civil rights issue (examples of other groups colonising can be given they know this is effective and is why they don’t want it used). And of course it is easy to say women are defined by biology what else would we be defined by, a feeling in a male’s head, a set of stereotypes, a medical procedure, that is very regressive and misogynistic. Answering all these questions reveals how regressive the ideology is. Most of the public have not seen the arguments countered in mainstream media, and I think that should be a good next step, rather than just accepting their arguments have any value or worth. When one points out why the ideology is morally bankrupt as is is based on regressive misogyny and homophobia, and that it is just the same old male entitlement most people do get it. Most of the public are not in academia and are not students, most people don’t like to think they have been manipulated, once they realise they have been, they can do something about it.

I think it’s far more effective to have the conversation TRAs don’t want to have, which is the practical consequences of redefining (or if you prefer, correctly recognising) Woman as a mixed sex group. It’s more effective and more powerful because it gets away from who is morally right or wrong and focuses on how this change impacts female people.

Everyone has been highlighting the harms to women for a long time, the problem is that it is considered by many to be a price that women and girls should pay, and the argument goes it a small amount of males, the males are a special category, any problems are isolated, you are accusing all of X etc. I think the TRAs don’t want their ideology challenged hence ‘no debate’.

I think both points need voicing. The harms to women of adopting the ideology needs to be voiced, as well as a challenge to the idea that there is a special category of male, based on feelings or cosmetic procedures, who it is progressive to champion.

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