Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

Were you supposed to be jetting over to LA to organise it?

No need, they always take my calls.

@julieca

Kelli-Jay does not believe kids should be in nursery while women work. She is a traditional conservative and her views around transgender spring out of that mindset.

And? There are very many people, men and women, who hold those sorts of conservative, old fashioned beliefs. Rich or poor!

I don't agree with everything anyone believes. I am not fucking Borg, after all!

@julieca

Kelli-Jay does not believe kids should be in nursery while women work. She is a traditional conservative and her views around transgender spring out of that mindset.

I don't think that is what she has said. At least I heard her say (or at least what I understood) on the recent triggernometry interview was that caring for children at home should be economically possible - in that it is actually a viable option if that is what the parents want to do. She was opposed to women working for low pay and their kids being cared for by other low paid people.

Also want to say that I don't see what the problem is with someone being a Christian. Or conservative. Both of those are things one is free to choose to be, if one so desires.

I say this as a militant agnostic who veers wobbilily to the left for the most part. Although it really shouldn't matter.

When on earth will people stop with these attempts to malign and smear and sneer and sow doubt on the motives and feelings of the women fighting for women's rights?

Why can't you just argue the points? Ad homs only reveal a weak argument.

Its true I dont know right wing conservative Christians

That's because we're not in the US. The attempts to paint gc UK women as such originate with the US. They really don't make much sense here. Yet still ...

It's quite telling how the "point" always seems to need buttressing with shit analogies about other groups of people, or smears.

Yes. It is. It just looks like flailing around, cycling through various attempts to divert, smear, threaten, blackmail, plead, etc. Rather than addressing the points directly. And discussing the issues at stake without attempting to manipulate the discourse.

And deep down, anyone participating in this type of disruptive attempt to derail etc, knows that they are not arguing in good faith. I always want to ask: Do you ever ask yourself why you are unable to do so? Does it not lead you to question what you are really trying to do?

What would happen if you put aside all the game playing and met the women on this board as equals, discussed the issues sensibly and openly and respectfully?

@julieca

I think peoples underlying values do matter. There are lots of conservative Christians who don't think you can change sex. I don't see them as my ally.

No-one believes you can change sex. A person can have extreme surgery and take hormones but they'll always be the sex they were at conception.

I don't see whether a person is conservative or liberal has any bearing on these facts.

@julieca

Kelli-Jay does not believe kids should be in nursery while women work. She is a traditional conservative and her views around transgender spring out of that mindset.

There are long traditions of Marxist-Feminist thought around the denigration of women's reproductive labour as not "real" work, which argue that women should be financially compensated for the labour of childbirth and childrearing; both because to pretend it isn't labour is part of the subjection of women, and because capitalism relies on a false distinction between "economic" work and "natural", uncompensated labour, which is harmful to women, children and also men.

There are strong traditions of this line of thought in second wave and radical feminism, which draw from Marxism, which would agree with some of her points. This is also feminism.

And deep down, anyone participating in this type of disruptive attempt to derail etc, knows that they are not arguing in good faith. I always want to ask: Do you ever ask yourself why you are unable to do so? Does it not lead you to question what you are really trying to do?

And do you not realise that other people can see that this is what you are doing?

When I first became aware of this issue 4-5 years ago, I barely needed to do any deep research to become fairly certain which side was the correct one.

The total lack of good faith arguments on the anti-gender-critical side told almost the whole story very fast. If there were any good arguments, they would be being used, rather than all sorts of disingenuous framing of the gender critical position.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Do you remember that time jj reproached all us mummies for the tone on the fruit forum, instead of going there to take it up with them?

There was also the time when an angry TRA accused women on a thread here, including me, of being personally responsible for the Antifa v Proud Boys violence outside Wi Spa.

yes.... I caught the brunt of that attack too. From both the male transitioned posters posting at 1 or 2 am that night.

All women on MN were responsible. And we should just STFU so that voilent protestors stopped stabbing each other.

It was glorious!

prudencepuffin I totally agree. I don't agree with my friends on everything. What a boring world it would be if we did. Like a group think cult.

However, it's probably better that you direct that question to julieca As he/she/they seemed to think it wasn't possible. I was just responding to them.

Apologies Tim - this thread is moving so fast!

I know you cant change sex and think women rights matter. I also think who you ally with matters. Campaigners like Julie Bindel also know that. Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

Apologies Tim - this thread is moving so fast!
No problem.

julieca Are you saying it's Christians and Conservatives you have a problem with?

@julieca

I know you cant change sex and think women rights matter. I also think who you ally with matters. Campaigners like Julie Bindel also know that. Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for."

• Andrea Dworkin -

I think you spend far too much time julieca justifying your own prejudices against people.

Prominent feminists fall out of each other's graces regularly. However, they do tend to back each other, despite their issues, when needed.

I really cannot be arsed to nit pick every feminist to make sure they are pure enough. If you wish to continue to do that, that is your issue. I can see why though you would be infuriated when others simply ignored your attempts. You seemed to consider yesterday's attempt to ignore your posts as a personal micro aggression.

@TimOTey I have a problem allying with anyone whose basic objection to transgender movement is that women and men should be in traditional families with traditional roles.
No need to quote Dworkin at me, I have read most of what she has written. And yes she is right there. But who you fight for is fundamentally different from who you fight and ally with.

@ArabellaScott

And deep down, anyone participating in this type of disruptive attempt to derail etc, knows that they are not arguing in good faith. I always want to ask: Do you ever ask yourself why you are unable to do so? Does it not lead you to question what you are really trying to do?

What would happen if you put aside all the game playing and met the women on this board as equals, discussed the issues sensibly and openly and respectfully?

I wonder this, too.

Is that aimed at me? Am I being accused of derailing?

Surely right wing/conservative women are women and so have a say in the definition of, you know, women?

Unless I am misunderstanding the argument here?

@ArabellaScott '^^If you genuinely are distressed by posting on this board or reading this board, I gently suggest you seek help. Elsewhere. If you don't like the tone or the things people say, you are free to challenge them. Expect to be challenged back. This is a discussion space. We're not your mothers. Think of it as 'notyourmumsnet.'

Indeed!

Andrea Dworkin made a fatal error when she allied with the Christian right.

That makes it sound like they killed her. Maybe don't describe decisions as fatal errors when the person is dead, it's misleading. She died in her sleep aged 58 and it had fuck all to do with who she spoke to, allied with or agreed with.