Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

@snekkes

I don't know if it's changed exactly. I think some discussions, and some posters, have always veered close to preferring trans people just didn't exist, to a greater or lesser extent. For example, the long and tired conversation about changing rooms and toilets, in which people will repeatedly say there's a law prohibiting trans women using womens' spaces (there isn't), and advocating a blanket ban. This isn't 'live and let live' or even 'women's rights are important' - it's often close to 'trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist pubically in the way they lawfully do today'.

The single sex exemptions in the equality act do mean transpeople shouldn’t use the facilities of their preferred gender.

School and work places have further laws about toilet provision.

No one doesn’t want trans people to exist. They do exist, obviously, and being visible and protected from discrimination is necessary. But trans people already have that. Trans people have a sex, they already have the same legal protections anyone of their sex does. They don’t get to take away women’s rights also.

Stop your manipulative drivel. It’s repetitive, and this board is for women’s rights discussions, not for women to be told to #bekind.

Blinkered, unsympathetic, unkind, shameful, toxic, unsupportive, hostile and misandrist..
That's definitely a full house.

If you're interested in 'live and let live', the conversation on this board is 'can we please have a solution that works for everyone and does not exclude and reduce access for females in order to include males. Because that is not inclusion'.

Incidentally, the conversation from the political lobby leading this is: No.

@foxgoosefinch

*I’m an atheist as well as a gender atheist.

Don’t @ me with your religion.*

Ah, @BloodinGutters -- women are my religion

Ah well that’s ok then.

I thought you were Adam&Eveing @ me

I’ll opt for women of rock&roll as my religion. Patti Smith is the rightful goddess of all things punk. And there is proof my god exists!!

That's definitely a full house.

No we haven't had " women are just as dangerous to other women as men are? I am sure it will be along soon.

@334bu

*That's definitely a full house.*

No we haven't had " women are just as dangerous to other women as men are? I am sure it will be along soon.

Or the version that lesbians are all rapists - and if we get allowed to pee in the pink toilets why can't hentai catgirls?

I’ll opt for women of rock&roll as my religion. Patti Smith is the rightful goddess of all things punk. And there is proof my god exists!!

I'll join you in the Church of Patti. As long as I get a Lady Chapel dedicated to Gillian Anderson

And again in this thread….lots of women debating the trends in the transgender movement, impact on children, patiently answering questions about racism…. But who keep saying a firm “NO” to people with penises in female single sex spaces. Because of considerations for vulnerable women and girls.

And we have transwomen here saying

a) “this is transphobic”
(translation “how dare you exclude me “)

b) “this is horrible. This board and MN makes me so upset”
(translation “you are so mean to exclude me)

c) “my clever friends won’t come here and my arguments has at one point been been derailed because women have commented on my clothes”
(translation “you are just stupid biological women who should know your place” and “how dare you treat me like any other woman. I am special”)

And then we are the meanies. Again. And I get that this post is a bit sarcastic but it is almost always the same core arguments. And the endgame is always that traumatised women, girls, rape victims etc need to welcome penises in single sex spaces. Because otherwise they are mean. Because transwomen are more important than biological women.

Ironically, you'd think women would have a little more sympathy considering they also struggled for the position they're in today regarding equality etc.

The real irony is that women are still fighting for equality against the same oppressors. Can't you see that? It looks even worse now than it ever did. Why would you think women should have sympathy towards born males that still want to remove their rights? I certainly wouldn't have any sympathy.

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

You okay, hon?

So now we have posters declaring they are in tears reading posts on the feminist board that they have quite a history of being a regular poster on….

You know you can scroll right past any thread that appears on active. It is rather infantile to blame others for your not scrolling past, let alone not being able to resist the impulse to post on any thread.

And if all it took to get others to stand up for us was to declare that some people were just mean and horrible to us, then gees, we should have been doing that from the start.

I knew that this thread would bring all the boys to the yard to tell us we're womanning wrong.

Misogyny is indeed eternal.

@foxgoosefinch

I’ll opt for women of rock&roll as my religion. Patti Smith is the rightful goddess of all things punk. And there is proof my god exists!!

I'll join you in the Church of Patti. As long as I get a Lady Chapel dedicated to Gillian Anderson

Can we have maybe an ante-chapel of St Joan Jett?

Ah, we are toxic. I am just back and catching up on what I should be self flagellating for tonight. I'll make a wee list.

#1 - take it away, Britney!

@foxgoosefinch

I’ll opt for women of rock&roll as my religion. Patti Smith is the rightful goddess of all things punk. And there is proof my god exists!!

I'll join you in the Church of Patti. As long as I get a Lady Chapel dedicated to Gillian Anderson

I’m sure Patti isn’t the kind of god who needs exclusive worship to prop up her ego.

My god will be more than happy to share the adoration with many other women.

She doesn’t mind at all that I frequently worship with Mia Zapata, Lauren Tate, Taylor Momsen, Kathleen Hanna, and as my nn suggests, Brody Dalle.

My goddess Patti is happy to share the faith.

And we are also:

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet.

I'm more scared for my daughter, watching her rights be removed in favour of another group of people who think she doesn't deserve the right to be safe and she should just be kind. She might be kind. It's her nature. And she doesn't understand the risks that males pose to her. I understand though. And I won't be kind. She deserves to have her spaces protected against males, to keep her safe. I don't really care if that makes people cry because they think she shouldn't be allowed that.

And we should all be feeling this:

The thing with me is that I've never met a trans person in all my 70 years. If I did, I would probably "be kind" and try and use the right pronouns and pretend I hadn't noticed the five o' clock shadow. But not all transwomen are kind, many seem to despise women, leading me to wonder why they want to be considered one of us at all.
Do the bearded ones on the lesbian dating sites really believe they're women? I'm very sceptical. If they don't really believe it themselves, why should the rest of us? In what other sphere of society are we required to believe that people are who they say they are? To believe that men never lie for their own ends?
So no, I'm not transphobic, I just refuse to be gullible, and I will continue to defend my right and the right of my daughters, grandaughter and all women to spaces, physical and societal, based on our sex.

"You're missing out because my clever friends won't come here", and "I cry everytime I visit this scary website" got to be my favourite comments so far.

The more the merrier! - there will be tea, cake, wine, and optional Sapphic rites if desired

A pp has made a good point that a lot of posters new to this board aren't aware of the myriad of rules which can lead to a deletion, which regular posters know and are used to couching their words to appease the misogynistic monitors. There's a lot more straight-talking from these posters as well as a recent visible relaxing of the rules (presumably due to court cases). This means there's a lot more direct language.

And there are a lot more new posters who are coming on and saying 'holy shit! I had no idea this was happening!'. The general public are starting to realise what is happening.

And alas, we have this:

If the poster is a transman or nb then there’s no one who would exclude them from women’s services, although posters often worry that using male facilities is a risk they don’t want them to take.

I don’t see why that is upsetting.

@Helleofabore

So now we have posters declaring they are in tears reading posts on the feminist board that they have quite a history of being a regular poster on….

You know you can scroll right past any thread that appears on active. It is rather infantile to blame others for your not scrolling past, let alone not being able to resist the impulse to post on any thread.

And if all it took to get others to stand up for us was to declare that some people were just mean and horrible to us, then gees, we should have been doing that from the start.

It’s very #triggered

(As someone with ptsd I absolutely loath how ‘triggered’ has became a thought terminating cliche. It’s been years since a full on triggered flash back or dissociated episode for me, but living through the experience of those causes the same trauma as the abuse, it’s the exact same trauma after it. And co-opting ‘triggered’ as a buzz word for anyone who feels a bit put out is grotesque)