Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

you'd think women would have a little more sympathy

there's open misandry on this site masquerading as feminism

And there we have it, the same old misogyny dressed up in progressive clothes. Women should have more sympathy for others instead of putting women first. Women who put women first are man haters.

Purgatory I'm just waiting for some midnight troll to arrive and call us all feminazis, just in the good old days.

*just like

Glad you agree as the number of detransitioners appears to be alarmingly high.

Be kind be kind be kind!

If you post saying binders are bad for vulnerable young girls, then you're driving vulnerable young girls to binders! It's all your fault!

If you post centring women that's not good for women! Or the right women! Or the non women!

if you centre women that's not good feminism, if you centre women that's misandry, centre the men at all times to be good feminists and good women! Even if the women are men and the men are women! Is it misandry, is it misogyny? Do we even know any more? Is it misnonbinaryism? Who can tell? Gender is ALL YOUR FAULT.

I'm going to make sure not to go to bed too early tonight. Don't want to miss any midnight men's rights activism!

you've made these boards so toxic that people are in tears when this is supposed to be a place of support.

This is the sex and gender discussion board. If discussing sex and gender makes PP sad there is a much simpler solution than demanding that everyone start thinking as they are told.

@foxgoosefinch

Be kind be kind be kind!

If you post saying binders are bad for vulnerable young girls, then you're driving vulnerable young girls to binders! It's all your fault!

If you post centring women that's not good for women! Or the right women! Or the non women!

if you centre women that's not good feminism, if you centre women that's misandry, centre the men at all times to be good feminists and good women! Even if the women are men and the men are women! Is it misandry, is it misogyny? Do we even know any more? Is it misnonbinaryism? Who can tell? Gender is ALL YOUR FAULT.

I think this might be mockery but only because it's clearer than most Genderist arguments.

Just popped back and I see we’re being bad women and failing to woman in the right way

We've been failing to woman in the right way since the dawn of time, remember it was our fault that men don't get to live perpetually in Heaven - and nothing much has changed since

Kurt is the reason you whine about horrible MN misandry because your advice to a woman in an abusive relationshp wasn't appreciated? How she should let her rapist have access to their baby?

Women you can only defend your rights naicely in ways that don't rub anyone up the wrong way while remembering at all times that anyone upset and having a hard time is your responsibility to nurture and fix things for.

No. I am mum only of the people I gave birth to. It is everyone's job to take responsibility for their own feelings, it is not the job of female humans to put everyone else first and make them ok regardless of their own needs. That is sexist and it's largely being said in another attempt to get women to please, please, please, shut up and submit.

No. Is the short answer.

This board has been hacked away from the main board and policed for our tone, our language and our perceived thoughts. I stopped using it for a while because I felt very very angry about that and any attempt to join any topic on chat was met with “fuck off back to your own corner”. Posters are goaded by bad faith ploppers trying to divert topics, start bun fights, drag the thread around to their own agenda and gleefully screenshot anything they can to scream “transphobe” all over the internet. We are angry. I mean this as genuinely and as gently as I can to anyone who is struggling with posts from strangers on any forum. Move away from it until you are able to view it in a way that doesn’t distress you and you can join the conversation without taking emotional damage.

@donquixotedelamancha

you've made these boards so toxic that people are in tears when this is supposed to be a place of support.

This is the sex and gender discussion board. If discussing sex and gender makes PP sad there is a much simpler solution than demanding that everyone start thinking as they are told.

Sound advice. I wouldn’t hang round long on a board that made me cry. I can’t get to the hide button quickly enough on any animal cruelty threads.

Also, this board is not actually a support board, as was made very clear to the users here when the boards split a few months back. It’s specifically for discussing the thorny issues around sex and gender, and was corralled here to keep the issue off the rest of the boards. If you need support, there are boards dealing with mental health, other health issues, relationships and any number of other topics.

Of course it can be very supportive, which I’ve seen many times.

@donquixotedelamancha

you've made these boards so toxic that people are in tears when this is supposed to be a place of support.

This is the sex and gender discussion board. If discussing sex and gender makes PP sad there is a much simpler solution than demanding that everyone start thinking as they are told.

This ^^

And the feminism board is not a place of support and never has been. It’s intended for robust discussion, for challenging beliefs and for expanding thinking.

There are times people might find support here, but that’s not the boards remit.

If posters are looking for support there’s a fuck truck of boards dedicated to that.

It’s like turning up to Tesco’s and crying about how they aren’t hosting your wedding.

It’s weird and manipulative.

I don't know if it's changed exactly. I think some discussions, and some posters, have always veered close to preferring trans people just didn't exist, to a greater or lesser extent. For example, the long and tired conversation about changing rooms and toilets, in which people will repeatedly say there's a law prohibiting trans women using womens' spaces (there isn't), and advocating a blanket ban. This isn't 'live and let live' or even 'women's rights are important' - it's often close to 'trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist pubically in the way they lawfully do today'.

@foxgoosefinch

We've been failing to woman in the right way since the dawn of time, remember it was our fault that men don't get to live perpetually in Heaven - and nothing much has changed since

I’m an atheist as well as a gender atheist.

Don’t @ me with your religion.

it's often close to 'trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist pubically in the way they lawfully do today'.

It is quite lawful to exclude male people including those who identify as women from female only places. This in no way stops them existing publically, they just can't use facilities which are not theirs to use.

@Fieldofgreycorn

girls transitioning etc. There's lots to be done still.

You mean trans men born female being correctly diagnosed and treated? Because they realise they are trans men?

Yes there has been an increase in detransitioners particularly in US where there seems to be no accountable medical gate keeping. I hope diagnosis gets better so that can be avoided more. But there will always be ‘girls transitioning’ (as you call them) because transsexuality or gender identity disorder is a diagnosable medical condition and probably always will be.

This is transphobic. You don't need a diagnosis to be trans. This is medical gatekeeping.

Isn't it?

@snekkes

I don't know if it's changed exactly. I think some discussions, and some posters, have always veered close to preferring trans people just didn't exist, to a greater or lesser extent. For example, the long and tired conversation about changing rooms and toilets, in which people will repeatedly say there's a law prohibiting trans women using womens' spaces (there isn't), and advocating a blanket ban. This isn't 'live and let live' or even 'women's rights are important' - it's often close to 'trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist pubically in the way they lawfully do today'.

Absolute nonsense.

If you're interested in 'live and let live', the conversation on this board is 'can we please have a solution that works for everyone and does not exclude and reduce access for females in order to include males. Because that is not inclusion'.

But this is now no longer a conversation with the OP (who seems to have gone) but a bit of a derail really.

@snekkes

I don't know if it's changed exactly. I think some discussions, and some posters, have always veered close to preferring trans people just didn't exist, to a greater or lesser extent. For example, the long and tired conversation about changing rooms and toilets, in which people will repeatedly say there's a law prohibiting trans women using womens' spaces (there isn't), and advocating a blanket ban. This isn't 'live and let live' or even 'women's rights are important' - it's often close to 'trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist pubically in the way they lawfully do today'.

This took me less than a minute to find - "Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes" www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Wishing to retain single sex spaces is simply not the same as believing that trans people shouldn't exist, however often that erroneous statement is repeated. The gaslighting is why women are angry.

Why don't you take a look at the text of Equality Act, snekkes, freely available online? We're all very keen on it here. And the legal exceptions for sex, as well as the equal protections for all the protected characteristics including gender reassignment.

I think you might do well to read that before you pitch up misrepresenting posters here with claims I have literally never seen anywhere on this board.

*I’m an atheist as well as a gender atheist.

Don’t @ me with your religion.*

Ah, @BloodinGutters -- women are my religion

Laws do exist that grant single sex spaces. Get over it.

There are so many more trans identifying people these days , with clear and understandable differences according to sex ( eg age of transistion) that it is quite clear that most of them are not innately trans.

3. we are also told that trans is not a medical condition

So sympathy , well if it's not innate and it's not medical , why do you need sympathy or kindness any more than anyone else ?

I'm sorry that MN has become such a saddening place for you to be. And the responses you've been given for your very honest post are unkind at best. Having known - and still being close to - a few trans people over the years, supporting their transition and seeing their struggles, I'm sorry that people are still so blinkered. Ironically, you'd think women would have a little more sympathy considering they also struggled for the position they're in today regarding equality etc. Shame on many of you quite frankly, that you've made these boards so toxic that people are in tears when this is supposed to be a place of support. What happened to women supporting women? It's opinions like some on this thread that stop your teens opening up to you, that send young trans men to LUSH for binders so they can feel comfortable in their skin even though the binders are restrictive and uncomfortable. Just lately the hostility on MN is unbearable, not it's for trans people but for anyone who shows a difference in lifestyle, opinion, or dares to say that there's open misandry on this site masquerading as feminism.

I found this hilarious.