Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

@334bu

Sorry Cheesecake have worked out what you meant but still don't know why you think we don't want equality and recognition for trans people?

Trans people have equality and recognition.

What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women.

Could you explain itsanewdah how the women of FWR are oppressing other women by fighting for women's rights?

What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

That's very true, but I suspect not in the way you mean. Women on here have taken the formerly niche issue of self ID and brought it to public attention. In doing so they have defended their rights to single sex sports, single sex prisions and single sex intimate provision. They have shone a spotlight on the treatment of vulnerable children.

At every stage of women's liberation, the rights achieved have been down to women demanding them, not men giving them.

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

Check your misogyny.

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

What? You said you were non binary on the binder thread this morning.

Can I suggest that if you cry every time you go on Mumsnet, you don't go on Mumsnet? It sounds like you have a lot bigger issues than gender if that's the case. Be well.

@ArabellaScott

When and why did that happen? I was away for a bit and when I came back there was an ugly colon in the topic title.

A few months ago, iirc. Some posters were VERY insistent they couldn't stand to read gender critical posts and really HAD to have separate board. So they got one. I avoid posting there; was told very loudly that I wasn't the right sort of feminist for 'feminist chat'. Also, all feminism is about 'sex and gender', it's the whole bloody point. So I just use this one, mostly.

I avoid the Chat board because of the sheer vitriol from some posters during the 'Great Divide' who basically saw any 'known' GC poster (like yourself Arabella) and told them to 'fuck off to your own board', no matter the content of their post. Now that was a unpleasant environment! Lots of those vitriolic poster's names I've never seen since surprisingly.

The trans movement has always been misogynistic and anti woman. It runs through the centre of it like a stick of rock. It cannot exist without colonising women's language and spaces and can only prosper if women are forced to submit and obey against our will.

That is not what equality looks like.

^
This

Some ideologies are regressive and are not compatible with the rights and dignity of others.

The recent cancelling of Kathleen Stock is just the latest example of how anyone who doesn’t toe the line on gender ideology is hounded. Stock’s position is basically TRA adjacent in my view, yet they even drove her out, it should tell anybody all they need to know.

Then we have the accusing people of hate speech when they disagree with an ideology, and reporting people to the police for a non crime hate incident, which has created a chilling effect where people are frightened of challenging harmful regressive ideologies. It is extremely oppressive.

Forcible suppression of the opposition is a tactic of fascism. An ideology that can only sustain itself by lies, manipulation, force and fear is not progressive and cannot sustain itself forever, and now people are starting to stand up and saying no to it.

When that doesn’t work we get the manipulation of ‘women are being mean and making me upset, as they won’t give me what I want’. It is pathetic manipulation, which tries to play into women’s socialisation to ‘be kind’ and ‘empathetic’, and be everyone’s mum.

girls transitioning etc. There's lots to be done still.

You mean trans men born female being correctly diagnosed and treated? Because they realise they are trans men?

Yes there has been an increase in detransitioners particularly in US where there seems to be no accountable medical gate keeping. I hope diagnosis gets better so that can be avoided more. But there will always be ‘girls transitioning’ (as you call them) because transsexuality or gender identity disorder is a diagnosable medical condition and probably always will be.

Just catching up on old posts here.

Robin

Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

I am surprised that you seem to think we might feel there was too little participation from such professions. We don't lack input from women in those sectors; in fact mumsnet is often denigrated for having a disproportionately middle-class, university-educated userbase! So academics and lawyers we have aplenty.

I come here to talk to women and identify commonalities in our experiences. It's not a massive surprise to me that not everyone is interested in what women have to say and bettering female lives.

where there seems to be no accountable medical gate keeping.

Glad to see Fieldifgreycorn that you are against self id without proper diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Medical gatekeeping is do important is t it?

is so important isn't it.

you’re left with a lot of the original hard core GC people on here. For every Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel there is a Kellie-Jay and Julia Long.

Women who set and maintain strong firm boundaries with males are not ‘hard core’, unless of course you think women having strong firm boundaries is ‘hard core’. If being ‘polite’ or ‘respectful’ means giving up women’s boundaries, and further entrenching a regressive misogynistic ideology, then I am fine with being called ‘impolite’ or ‘disrespectful’.

@Fieldofgreycorn

girls transitioning etc. There's lots to be done still.

You mean trans men born female being correctly diagnosed and treated? Because they realise they are trans men?

Yes there has been an increase in detransitioners particularly in US where there seems to be no accountable medical gate keeping. I hope diagnosis gets better so that can be avoided more. But there will always be ‘girls transitioning’ (as you call them) because transsexuality or gender identity disorder is a diagnosable medical condition and probably always will be.

Here in the uk the number of girls referred to Tavistock increased by over 5000% in 9 years.

35% of those girls are diagnosed with autism.

Compared to less than 1% in the general population.

Many then detransition. While there’s less research on the figures it is obvious that girls with autism are again massively disproportionately represented within detrans girls. As are lesbians and girls who are victims of csa.

There may be a small % who are happy once transitioned, but watchful waiting won’t harm that small %, whereas pathologising very vulnerable groups of girls will destroy them.

Read Keira Bell’s story.

No one should want to risk that happening to any girl.

Stop throwing safeguards for vulnerable girls out of the window.

transsexuality or gender identity disorder is a diagnosable medical condition and probably always will be.

Don't really wanna get on my historian soapbox again today, but it's been a medical diagnosis for substantially less than one hundred years, and since it didn't exist for most of recorded history, no reason why it probably always will be (historical pathologies often come and go - you heard of anyone being diagnosed with melancholy, neurasthenia or moral insanity lately...?)

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

I'm sorry that MN has become such a saddening place for you to be. And the responses you've been given for your very honest post are unkind at best. Having known - and still being close to - a few trans people over the years, supporting their transition and seeing their struggles, I'm sorry that people are still so blinkered. Ironically, you'd think women would have a little more sympathy considering they also struggled for the position they're in today regarding equality etc. Shame on many of you quite frankly, that you've made these boards so toxic that people are in tears when this is supposed to be a place of support. What happened to women supporting women? It's opinions like some on this thread that stop your teens opening up to you, that send young trans men to LUSH for binders so they can feel comfortable in their skin even though the binders are restrictive and uncomfortable. Just lately the hostility on MN is unbearable, not it's for trans people but for anyone who shows a difference in lifestyle, opinion, or dares to say that there's open misandry on this site masquerading as feminism.

You mean trans men born female being correctly diagnosed and treated? Because they realise they are trans men?

@Fieldofgreycorn Could you explain what you mean here please? What is wrong with saying a 'girl who transitions'?

*not ONLY for trans people .. that should say.

Er, @KurtWilde, that poster was quite happily posting that they were non binary (not trans), and cheering on the use of binders as a great thing this morning on a different thread; so it literally makes no sense at all to say that we terrible mums netters are driving them to binders.

Really, you sound like you haven't got the first clue.

1 women don’t have equality, no where fucking near it.

2 here we are back at being told off for being unkind.

Is that bingo yet??

I am sorry that itsanewdah is upset but I don't see what anyone on this thread has said to them which would have caused this. Itsanewdah has said that women suppress other women and we would like to know what they mean by this. As for misandry I think you are wrong. I have men that I love but that doesn't blind me to the fact that some male people of all gender identities are predators and that in certain circumstances women need to be protected from them.

I don’t shop in marks because I don’t want to come across a man or a woman with a penis in the changing rooms. I do wonder how much is safe for women these days. We are not even safe dead and lying in a mortuary.

Why are you crying?

Do you care if trans ideology makes others cry? Are you aware ?

Medical gatekeeping is so important is t it?

It absolutely is.

These accusations of misandry make me feel so nostalgic. It's like being back on 2013 mumsnet!

@KurtWilde What happened to women supporting women? took the words right out of my mouth! What are your thoughts on Kathleen Stock?