Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

BlueberryCheezecake if you want to respond to four hundred and something posts with a weak meme, in fact a description of a weak meme, that's on you.

@dolorsit

Actually this space was forced on us when Mumsnet split feminist chat in two.

When and why did that happen? I was away for a bit and when I came back there was an ugly colon in the topic title.

@Needmoresleep

I am pretty much invisible. Like many women of my age you would pass me in the street and not notice me. Its fine, my children are close to finishing University and are embarking on independent lives, I am healthy and have enough money for a comfortable retirement, I did right by my parents, and get on well with my husband. I live my life the way I want, try to minimise my impact on the environment, pay my taxes and give to charities, and try ensure I take 10,000 steps a day. I also try to take people as I find them, regardless of class, race or religion. I do not join movements. I also don't believe that intersectionality is a useful tool, and prefer to promote equality of opportunity to approaches that tend to imply victimhood.

I doubt we would find much common ground, but then diversity of opinion is fine.

I do however object to people taking away my language and my ability to describe myself. I object to people taking away my dignity, and that of other, often more vulnerable, women. I object to the unnecessary and unsafe medicalisation of children. I object to men playing women's sport without acknowledging their physical advantages. I dislike the way these decisions are so often made by men without consulting women.

Seconded.

All I can think of is the meme with the two astronauts

"It's anti-trans?"

"It always has been"

Not sure exactly who you expected a movement which opposes equality and recognition for trans people to attract, to be honest. Of course it's anti-trans. This is the space you created.

The trans movement has always been misogynistic and anti woman. It runs through the centre of it like a stick of rock. It cannot exist without colonising women's language and spaces and can only prosper if women are forced to submit and obey against our will.

That is not what equality looks like.

Trans is written by Helen Joyce. It's also the book Sex Matters sent to all MPs and MSPs.

Gah, sorry, of course. I am so shite with names.

When and why did that happen? I was away for a bit and when I came back there was an ugly colon in the topic title.

A few months ago, iirc. Some posters were VERY insistent they couldn't stand to read gender critical posts and really HAD to have separate board. So they got one. I avoid posting there; was told very loudly that I wasn't the right sort of feminist for 'feminist chat'. Also, all feminism is about 'sex and gender', it's the whole bloody point. So I just use this one, mostly.

Not sure exactly who you expected a movement which opposes equality and recognition for trans people to attract, to be honest.

Hi Cheezecake, here for the nuanced debate and engagement!

Do you believe in the Equality Act, since you’re for equality? Or don’t you believe in it?

@MiladyBerserko

Wheresmywoolyjumpers Then report those posts. MN will delete them.

There is a big gap between something that breaches guidelines and something that is unpleasant. You can make a point about the ideology and lobbying without lumping all trans people into one group.

Sorry Cheesecake have worked out what you meant but still don't know why you think we don't want equality and recognition for trans people?

Gosh, why do women have to be kind all the bloody time. Men are never asked to be kind, its just not expected of them. People are anti trand ideology and pronouns and part of that ideology along with organisations that go along with Stonewalls idea of inclusion which no longer recognises the needs of biological females or same sex attraction. We are done with being nice as it didnt work. Misogyny in all its guises relies on females being nice

@ArabellaScott

When and why did that happen? I was away for a bit and when I came back there was an ugly colon in the topic title.

A few months ago, iirc. Some posters were VERY insistent they couldn't stand to read gender critical posts and really HAD to have separate board. So they got one. I avoid posting there; was told very loudly that I wasn't the right sort of feminist for 'feminist chat'. Also, all feminism is about 'sex and gender', it's the whole bloody point. So I just use this one, mostly.

I wouldn’t mind but most of them are still bloody on here!!!!

Do you remember that time jj reproached all us mummies for the tone on the fruit forum, instead of going there to take it up with them?

I'd never even heard of it until jj directed us there on that thread!

I wouldn't say I was 'anti-trans': I have had trans people to stay in my house... I want trans people to live safe, productive and happy lives. I don't oppose equality and recognition for trans people at all.

But I do oppose having language taken from me, women's sports being bollocksed up, vulnerable women being obliged to share their spaces with intact males (prisons, for example) and children who not yet old enough to make know what they are doing trashing their future fertility.

So yup, I have been known to get bloody angry. But angry women, as we all know, are just irrational screaming harpies to be criticised or ignored.

You can make a point about the ideology and lobbying without lumping all trans people into one group.

Of course not all trans people are the same. However, some of them are trying to promote an ideology which is detrimental to women's rights and some are actively lobbying to remove some rights which women already have. Are we not allowed to discuss this?

Look, can you go moan at Stonewall et al, (and some posters on this very thread and all over FWR) for lumping all female people who want sex based rights into one group? And failing to say 'of course we absolutely want all females to have equality and sex based rights' every single time they open their mouths?

Because the fact that no one ever does just reinforces all over again.

Those supporting these politics think women give. Women owe. And the political lobby will take with no responsibilities whatsoever, never mind equality of expectations. For petes sake take your issues with sexism, boundaries and power imbalanced relationships to the relationship board. And believe me, the women in there will hand you your arse in much more straightforward terms than the women in here.

@1potato

Try reading Miranda Yardley’s writing about being transgender. He (he prefers he) is a transwoman who supports women’s rights and talks about differing trans factions views on gender ideology. Mir would have previously been termed transsexual (and he’s fine with that term).

Grayson Perry is worth reading to understand the other type of transwomen. While Grayson never pauses to think who stereotypes harm he is at least honest about how his type of trans requires the use of binary stereotypes.

Look up detransitioners voices also. Detrans Reddit has thousands of detransitioners.

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet.
What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

There’s always been a wide range of opinions here.

Some just opposed self ID but were ok with transsexual people being able to change their legal sex and use some facilities appropriate to their transitioned sex. Or would perhaps use preferred pronouns.

Others are more hard line, want to repeal the GRA, don’t believe there is actually such thing as a ‘trans’ person or that a person recorded male at birth can ever be a ‘trans woman’ because they are a feminine male, nothing else. They will never use preferred pronouns/ only use sex based ones.

Now that self ID has been rejected in England you’re left with a lot of the original hard core GC people on here. For every Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel there is a Kellie-Jay and Julia Long.

@334bu

*You can make a point about the ideology and lobbying without lumping all trans people into one group.*

Of course not all trans people are the same. However, some of them are trying to promote an ideology which is detrimental to women's rights and some are actively lobbying to remove some rights which women already have. Are we not allowed to discuss this?

Yes of course - the point I was making (and OP I believe) was not that discussion should be shut down. And people have the right to be angry. But the tone of the debate does not have to be nasty especially with each other surely?

Hard core GC is perhaps the wrong phrase. I guess I mean there have always been those that are more polite and respectful than others.
That goes for trans people as well as GC people of course.

Now that self ID has been rejected in England you’re left with a lot of the original hard core GC people on here. For every Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel there is a Kellie-Jay and Julia Long.

And yet in Scotland legally male sex offenders are being housed in female prisons. Male patients are being placed on female wards and women's refuges have to accommodate male clients or risk losing their funding. I don't think you have to be hard core to think that there is something very wrong going on.

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

I want to cry when I come on to Mumsnet sometimes.

Because there’s loads of threads about women being murdered for being a woman in the wrong time and place, for being in relationships with horrible abusive people for simply having the bad luck to be targeted by misogynists who have no qualms about beating, raping or killing women.

It’s a tragedy.

@Itsanewdah

Yes. its scary. I’m one of these undesirable trans people. i wish i wasn’t. i’m scared. i cry most times i go on mumsnet. What I learned is that the worst enemy for women are other women. Women don’t need men to suppress women, they are doing a stellar job all bu themselves.

Would it be worth sharing some female victim/ male perpetrator of crime statistics with you?

Or are you happy just revelling in your misogyny?

Now that self ID has been rejected in England you’re left with a lot of the original hard core GC people on here.

If self-id was the only issue it would be so much easier! We have men being placed in women's wards, girls transitioning etc. There's lots to be done still.

I haven’t been on these boards long enough, but on the whole I see very thoughtful responses, respectful.

I didn’t see the board on M&S.

However I think it’s OK to be fed up. I have very little time now for hysteria. As long as I’m not being hateful or discriminatory I will stand up for any safeguarding concerns especially with children.