Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

@LobsterNapkin Yes I was told I write like a man. I mean wtf does that mean! Totally based on stereotypes.

Ive not had a chance to read through the thread yet, i am about to though

But

Im nice 90% of the time…and even when im not nice I don’t name call or insult people

I’m not anti trans in the slightest

I’m not about to start tone policing other posters whether i agree with them or not

Anything transphobic i report

I do understand that potential tone changes are probably down to frustration

[quote julieca]@LobsterNapkin Yes I was told I write like a man. I mean wtf does that mean! Totally based on stereotypes.[/quote]
Usually I think people who say things like that are a bit silly, and it's better to ignore them and carry on, if it's an interesting discussion otherwise.

Although it did make me feel a little self-conscious.

Absolutely agree with you Julia that enforcing gender stereotypes is just a way to further oppress women. This is why gender ideology presents such a threat to women and children, as it tries to say that being a woman is based on gender stereotypes.

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Hi 1potato!

Do you have children? I would recently checking with their schools as to which materials they are planning to use for their gender sessions. They will almost certainly be from the trans perspective.

The school May be very reluctant to give it to you but if you argue your case and that you are trying to educate yourself, they will probably give it to you.

Good luck!

Thanks for replying. I do have children but they're not yet at school. I also freelance so I'm missing out on accessing materials via a corporation. All I can draw upon is soundbites from social media and extremely vague recollections of queer theory at uni.

I think the bit I would particularly like to find out more about is why some trans people say gender doesn't exist, if anyone has any pointers.

I don't think trans people think gender doesn't exist.

@julieca it's fine if you disagree, I have no problem with that. But you asked for engagement with your posts and with the issue of race and blackface and this is undoubtedly nuanced debate. Okay, I accept that you probably didn't mean that you wanted to have a mini seminar with someone whose publishing and teaching interests just happen to include the history of slavery, 19thc. feminism and American performance cultures. I'm interested in these things and know a lot about them so I like to talk about them. But you ask for nuanced debate, you can't complain if you get it in spades or how it comes.

The racism isn't in the comparison of blackface and misogyny, though yes, you're at liberty to disagree with me, that's fine. It was already there in the culture that produced blackface. And it isn't racist to take a nuanced position on that. The overwhelming majority of scholars working in that field are themselves black (and female for the most part). So there is clearly space to disagree.

I will note, however, that in one of your posts upthread you outright dismissed the substantial body of work produced by the very first generation of African-American female thinkers and activists, and how they saw sex, race and civil rights as connected -- black women who literally lived through slavery and Reconstruction. On the grounds that they clearly didn't have the right language to understand or express their oppression. Now, funnily enough that is exactly what the white male establishment thought too, which is why they were literally confined to obscurity for a very long time.

But, I honestly recommend, go and read some of the black female writers of the time like Harriet Jacobs, Frances Harper, Mary Ann Shadd, read about Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, and you will be amazed at the erudition of their work and their activism. To dismiss them as mouthpieces for white discourse is just wrong. These were passionate, talented, clever women who deserve to be read.

I think the bit I would particularly like to find out more about is why some trans people say gender doesn't exist, if anyone has any pointers

If you are ok with videos, then YouTube is replete with Gender Identity proponents who go into these topics in stupefying detail. Searching 'Am I transgender' is a useful starting point for the basics. It's also, incidentally, what most young people will see as their initial indoctrination when they type in the question. (The basic answer is that if you're asking the question, you probably are) That should lead you down the rabbit hole if you follow linked vids that interest you.

Also TikTok if you can bear it.

I recommend a palate cleanser like TT exulansic afterwards, though.

potato you could try Sally Hines and Shon Faye.

I've not read Helen Lewis' trans book but I think this has an overview of different thoughts and theories, altho from a gc perspective

foxgoose thank you for your interesting posts.

Potato, I don’t know in that case. I got a lot of information from that perspective from the schools.

Maybe Mermaids?

Reddit is actually entirely trans friendly at the moment. All female centred subs were thrown out and I believe there are mainly transwomen on actual lesbian.

The last sub which allows any criticism of trans is TumblrInAction and they have said that they will be kicked out any day as they refuse to accept that someone who says that they are forbidden to say anything anyone views as identity invalidation. Only reason they lasted so long is that it is full of MRAs.

There is an article from Glinner

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/ashton-challenor-the-boy-who-disappeared

Which talks about some of the transgender Reddit mods. I believe one moderates up to 80 subs.

Have a look at basically any “women’s” sub at Reddit. GC women are thrown out.

@ArabellaScott

I've not read Helen Lewis' trans book but I think this has an overview of different thoughts and theories, altho from a gc perspective

Trans is written by Helen Joyce. It's also the book Sex Matters sent to all MPs and MSPs.

There’s also a bit of a dismissive pile on here which I dont think would have happened a few month ago

In the process of learning about this I’ve been picked up on some of my naive views. There’s one previous name I won’t ever reuse as my arse was (justifiably) handed to me on a plate this was quite a while ago.

I used this board a lot, got fed up with the moderation policy, buggered off to Tumblr for a while, and have come back.
I think the moderation is less stifling than before but still much tougher than on messageboards etc aimed more at men. But the contributors here are incredible, so it's worth it.
Ultimately, it's a largely anonymous Internet forum, and like all similar sites there is always a contingent who'd prefer it to be slightly (or totally) different.
I spent years on a lesbian messageboard which has now completely disappeared, with all the years or rows and relationships and debates gone, no archives, no server.
Mainly it taught me two things: don't get too attached to any particular resource online, and make sure you keep what you need, be it physical books, offline friendships, or other resources.
Going back to OP's question, I don't notice a change in tone recently but I have noticed the difference in moderation. I have noticed a tone change on "radblr" (radical feminist Tumblr) where young women are much less accepting of compromise with regard to genderism.

From reading a review of Kathleen Stock’s ‘Material Girls’ I gather she explains the evolution of thought that lead to people thinking that natal sex can be different from an inner sense of gender.

I have noticed a tone change on "radblr" (radical feminist Tumblr) where young women are much less accepting of compromise with regard to genderism.

Interesting, @FlyingOink - I also use Tumblr and largely for radblr, which heartens my soul every time I see bright young women taking no shit from the TRAs on there and doing a fantastic job of pushing back on all of this. Have you got any recommendations for sites or tags to follow? I'm always hoping to widen my Tumblr feed but the bloody algorithm they use on there is always changing one's feed view. And randomly unfollowing and following people grrr! (PM me if you don't want to post Tumblr handles publicly)

Oh and I've been accused of typing like a man in many places all over the Internet.
I have been called sir on the phone too, I'm quite direct and don't hedge what I'm saying so people assume I'm a man. I don't really mind if they do.
I also spent roughly two years reading 4chan, which is about the wildest place most of us have heard of online. They're misogynist, racist, completely anonymous (there are no real usernames and your poster id changes from thread to thread) and some are very articulate. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, basically.
Until or unless the Internet regresses to being owned by a handful of companies (more than it already is!) there are plenty of places to go and watch bunfights or argue with strangers about anything you can think of.
This place is very useful, the structure (old school messageboard format) lends itself to long form argument, and it's popular enough that information shared here actually has some impact. An obvious example is in terms of crowdfund contributions; I think MN has helped fight some important battles.
There's always a chance that a site can just disappear, or policy can change, and that's why it's also important to share other resources. Places like ovarit, spinster, Tumblr, reddit, Facebook, twitter, kiwifarms, wherever. I guess it's not keeping all the eggs in one basket, even if (to my mind) this is the most valuable basket.

@foxgoosefinch

I have noticed a tone change on "radblr" (radical feminist Tumblr) where young women are much less accepting of compromise with regard to genderism.

Interesting, @FlyingOink - I also use Tumblr and largely for radblr, which heartens my soul every time I see bright young women taking no shit from the TRAs on there and doing a fantastic job of pushing back on all of this. Have you got any recommendations for sites or tags to follow? I'm always hoping to widen my Tumblr feed but the bloody algorithm they use on there is always changing one's feed view. And randomly unfollowing and following people grrr! (PM me if you don't want to post Tumblr handles publicly)

I'd give you mine but I'm keeping it totally anonymous, all I admit to is living in England and being older than most of my mutuals

I'd genuinely suggest searching for the latest "t*rf blocklist" and following everyone on it. I can share one with you if you like?

(also I've just realised my last post had no paragraph spacing and looks like a wall of text oops)

Also the search function and even the tag function on Tumblr is awful. They all joke about the site's shitty functionality all the time. So I'd suggest following a ton of women and then just unfollowing if you don't like their output.

The other frustrating thing about Tumblr is when your mutuals all reblog the same thing and you see it eighty-two times on your dash

Thanks so much for the recommendations everyone. I'll certainly check them all out.

Finished

I think there is righteous anger on here, and a wealth of links and information

Its full of women who have found their voices and aren’t afraid to use them, its full of posters who are bored witless with having to caveat their posts to ‘be kind’ and they just aren’t going to do it anymore

I think if you aren’t comfortable with posts on here then you decide whether here is a place you want to be

I went on that kiwi forum once and I didn’t like some of the posts…i didnt bitch about them, i just stopped reading…it wasnt the place i wanted to be

@ViceLikeBlip

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

All I can think of is the meme with the two astronauts

"It's anti-trans?"

"It always has been"

Not sure exactly who you expected a movement which opposes equality and recognition for trans people to attract, to be honest. Of course it's anti-trans. This is the space you created.

Actually this space was forced on us when Mumsnet split feminist chat in two.

I went on that kiwi forum once and I didn’t like some of the posts…i didnt bitch about them, i just stopped reading…it wasnt the place i wanted to be

They are pretty harsh. But they're also very strict with each other about providing sources and archiving stuff that can be deleted. I'm pretty sure they started out just as a place to laugh at Internet weirdos (like somethingawful or encyclopedia dramatica) but ended up having a lot of resources on TRAs. I have winced at some of their character assassinations and don't spend too much time there, but for lots of detail they're very useful.

Not sure exactly who you expected a movement which opposes equality and recognition for trans people to attract, to be honest. Of course it's anti-trans. This is the space you created

Who opposes equality?
Sorry didn't understand" recognition for trans people to attract, to be honest. " Could you explain what you mean here?