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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

999 replies

ViceLikeBlip · 08/11/2021 21:58

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

OP posts:
EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/11/2021 14:25

Surely the racism and homophobia in a statement like “But a gay woman or a black woman are still women, why not a trans woman?” is pretty obvious?

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 14:26

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch I knew about those things and yes I still think it is racist.
I also don't understand when so many black women say it is racist, the response seems to double down. I have seen these discussions many times. So you don't think its racist, why not simply stop using the comparison if it offends so many black women?[/quote]
There are other posters who are black women who say it isn’t racist.

Same way some transwomen say using factual language is transphobic and some transwomen say it isn’t.

We don’t have to disengage our brains to please others.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 09/11/2021 14:39

And again with the policing of this thread. And this board. Sigh.

There are a lot of intelligent and wonderful posters here but I refuse to take responsibility for what everyone posts everywhere on every single thread/board I am on.

And there is always the poster who flaps about and get incredibly sad that they feel ignored. And try to centre themselves and whatever topic they want to discuss.

I refuse to take responsibility for others language, opinions or their general level of happiness. I will call our anything nasty if I see it. I might miss it.

This is an anonymous discussion forum. I am not the mother of the people here. I have my own children.

OvaHere · 09/11/2021 14:44

@Doubletoilandtrouble

And again with the policing of this thread. And this board. Sigh.

There are a lot of intelligent and wonderful posters here but I refuse to take responsibility for what everyone posts everywhere on every single thread/board I am on.

And there is always the poster who flaps about and get incredibly sad that they feel ignored. And try to centre themselves and whatever topic they want to discuss.

I refuse to take responsibility for others language, opinions or their general level of happiness. I will call our anything nasty if I see it. I might miss it.

This is an anonymous discussion forum. I am not the mother of the people here. I have my own children.

I vote we start wearing our own badges to work, to the shops or wherever, that say "I Am Not Your Mother". Grin

I think it could catch on.

Terfydactyl · 09/11/2021 15:01

But my point was that I still believe that the majority of trans people are not violent TRAs, and they just want to live their lives in peace, and I'm not sure many other people on here believe that any more

I'm late to this because work got in the way so this may have been said,

I personally do not believe the majority of trans are violent TRAs.
And so what?
They still wont be coming into women only spaces again. They can live their peaceful lives all they want (I dont even think about them until they impinge on women only spaces) in with the men.
If this is hard well tough, its impossible for certain women to use a single sex space if a man is in it, it's not impossible for a transwoman to use the mens.
They could have done a lot of things to help themselves in this particular fight, they didnt, they could have said many things in this particular fight, they didnt.
So what am I supposed to do about it?
That era is over. And we cannot and I will not row it back. Because if we do then we start this fight all over again.
I haven't the time or patience.

MoonlightApple · 09/11/2021 15:03

I think people should remain polite where they can with people they disagree with, but demanding kindness is not necessarily helpful.

I don’t think most people here are in any way anti trans. There may however be a fair few who as they reject gender ideology as a a belief, don’t really believe in trans people either but that’s no difference from a Jewish person rejecting that Jesus is the son of god. It doesn’t make them automatically anti-Christian.

Stopthisnow · 09/11/2021 15:06

This reply has been deleted

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Stopthisnow · 09/11/2021 15:07

Manipulation comes in different guises. I've been on FWR for around 6 years now, maybe longer. In that time I've seen a lot of 'reasonable TW' come and go. I find in the end they all have had self interested reasons for being here and holding whatever position it is they take. A long time ago I also used to think their input might be helpful. I no longer think this.

I have a problem with the idea that it's only the violent threat/ suck my dick anime crowd on twitter who are a problem. In some respects they're the least of our problem because Twitter mostly isn't real life.

It's rarely those people who are lobbying government, businesses and organisations, getting legislation and policy changed that disadvantages women and girls. We need to be just as aware of the disingenuous sleights of hand as we do the rape and death threats

^
This

Stopthisnow · 09/11/2021 15:10

talking about womanface and blackface, and some make a very specific link between the two, is racist.

That is your opinion others disagree, including many black women, Dave Chappelle (a black man) said recently TE*F’s see these men like black people see blackface and he is correct. In both cases it is the oppresser white people in the case of blackface and men in the case of womenface pretending to be the group they oppress. If one sees the racism in blackface but not the misogyny in womanface then they need to ask themselves why they are blind to misogyny.

I don't see others directly comparing anti lesbianism to misogyny by the names they use

I am a lesbian and understand lesbophobia comes from the fact that we do not allow men access to our bodies, which they feel entitled to, the root of lesbophobia is therefore misogyny. Anyone who is familiar with feminist analysis from the 70’s on will know that. This is why we know that men claiming to be lesbian women and hassling lesbians for sex is the same old misogynistic male sexual entitlement.

What I find homophobic and racist is men comparing themselves being accepted as women, to lesbian and black women being accepted as women, men aren’t female so are not a type of woman, whereas lesbians and black women are female so are a type of woman. This comparison is lesbophobic racist and as it assumes that lesbians and black women are lesser women and more like men.

Artichokeleaves · 09/11/2021 15:10

Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

There is very little point coming on to this thread to moan at women while making it clear that clever, intelligent and educated males would never lower themselves to get their hands dirty actually listening to women.

So don't listen to women. Block your ears to what they say. Avoid them like the plague for being so rude as to refuse to hand over their rights and freedoms and safety to you. Make it clear that you feel they're stupid, beneath you and exist to merely do what their betters (obvs these educated elite) tell them.

Just don't be surprised that these women have lost all patience with them and you, and have no further interest in your causes. You have actively and personally helped to make them too busy trying to pick up their pieces of their own rights and needs. If you alienate and offend women, why are you still expecting them to be nice and sweet about it?!

Having a vagina makes me no one's mum. And masochism isn't a kink I have.

ArabellaScott · 09/11/2021 15:15

I vote we start wearing our own badges to work, to the shops or wherever, that say "I Am Not Your Mother".

Great idea. This board could be 'notyourMumsnet'.

LobsterNapkin · 09/11/2021 15:17

@AnyOldPrion

The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I wasn’t particularly interested in that thread. I definitely don’t feel strongly enough to e-mail M&S so after reading the first few posts, I stopped reading. I think it’s obvious some women prioritize different things and are angry over different scenarios, and that’s their business.

But as you singled it out, I went and looked further (five pages in, I haven’t read the full thread) and I saw many different views being stated. Some posters were saying it’s useful, others were agreeing with your proposition, that e-mailing and calling for boycotts is an overreaction. “Looking for a fight” was one of the phrases used.

There certainly wasn’t an echo chamber or a blanket of uniform views. The OP had stronger opinions on this than I do, but there was no consensus of agreement, even among the posters who I think would consider themselves to be gender critical.

Compare that to the wall of out and out hate faced recently by Margaret Atwood for posting something about the word women being eroded. It’s not remotely similar and if you see it as such, then I think you are judging the two sides with a very skewed view.

You use the word “clamouring” but the reality in that thread is that the OP expressed quite a strident view, which very few people actively agreed with. A few felt strongly enough to e-mail, presumably politely objecting against the fact that introducing pronoun badges is a long way from being neutral, and probably also relating to the truth: that this is very often cynical virtue signaling on the part of these big companies, and really doesn’t indicate any real shift in values.

There were a couple of people saying they “made GC people (feel) unsafe. And that is very much a transactivist point of view, in my opinion. I really hope gender critical women do not go down that line as it’s very annoying to me. I can understand it would make people uncomfortable and perhaps feel less welcome, but the “unsafe” rhetoric is generally not backed up with any real evidence of risk.

One thing I can see is that introducing pronoun badges is far from being a neutral act. For me, it’s not worth fighting for, but I understand others feel differently and perhaps simply have more energy for calling out transactivism wherever they see it, whereas I tend to concentrate on supporting more major initiatives, where there are legal challenges, or government consultations that might sway the outcome of significant changes. But I don’t see those women, personally boycotting businesses and perhaps e-mailing their objections as anything like those posting death threats on Twitter and encouraging businesses to boycott women who express the wrong views.

A few women e-mailing M&S about pronoun badges is not the same as a few transactivists contacting an art gallery to complain they are selling the work of an artist who said something they don’t agree with on Twitter. The power and impact in each case is hugely different.

In the unlikely event M&S listen, then all that happens is a badge company makes different types of badges. Perhaps a few transactivists will be disappointed, but nobody is really losing out. Whereas if the art gallery listens and stops promoting that artist’s work, then their entire career can go down the pan.

Do you see that these things really are not the same? It’s not about the tone of the argument? It’s about relative power and how it is being used.

I think this is a really good post and I tend to be on the same page with my assessments. I usually think it's best to take the long view with activist types of activities.

It does however make me think of the recent thread about calling out some man in a line for gender neutral toilets, where I was accused of having nefarious motives because I thought that calling out an unknown individual for doing what the sign indicated was fine was non-useful.

To me that kind of thing goes well beyond a difference of opinion over what are the most effective or important things to do. It very much resembles TRA tactics and gives the impression that only correct opinions are tolerated.

julieca · 09/11/2021 15:19

@Stopthisnow yes I said misogyny and anti lesbianism have the same common root. Women's role is to serve men.

ScrollingLeaves · 09/11/2021 15:20

One kind feeling I do have is a genuine interest in, and sympathy for, what might motivate a trans gender woman or man besides the desire to be ‘something else’? What are they trying to get away from?

Also, what way of life do they hope to gain in more abstract ways that they couldn’t have got as their original selves (ie what might they gain apart from body, looks and clothes)?

I would be respectful to any trans person I came across in life so long as they were not transgressing or invading women’s places of safety, sports, jobs etc. other peoples sexuality when they heterosexual, Lesbian or Gay, or destroying language as part of an ideology.

RepentMotherfucker · 09/11/2021 15:23

@Artichokeleaves

Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

There is very little point coming on to this thread to moan at women while making it clear that clever, intelligent and educated males would never lower themselves to get their hands dirty actually listening to women.

So don't listen to women. Block your ears to what they say. Avoid them like the plague for being so rude as to refuse to hand over their rights and freedoms and safety to you. Make it clear that you feel they're stupid, beneath you and exist to merely do what their betters (obvs these educated elite) tell them.

Just don't be surprised that these women have lost all patience with them and you, and have no further interest in your causes. You have actively and personally helped to make them too busy trying to pick up their pieces of their own rights and needs. If you alienate and offend women, why are you still expecting them to be nice and sweet about it?!

Having a vagina makes me no one's mum. And masochism isn't a kink I have.

Hear hear!

Could that post be anymore misogynistic?

I don't think male people should be telling women how to feminist.

I don't think we are missing out by not having the benefit of the thoughts of these entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers give that all of these professions are represented right here, by women.

1potato · 09/11/2021 15:24

Hello all!

New poster on this board but I have done a fair bit of lurking and had my brain and eyes opened. Thanks so much to all those engaging in such important, nuanced debate.

I have a request that I hope doesn't go down like like ton of bricks. I'm struggling to find good resources to educate myself more about gender ideology/philosophy from the trans perspective. Is anyone able to point me in the right direction please? I had a look on Stonewall but it seems you need to hire them first!

Thank you!

Doubletoilandtrouble · 09/11/2021 15:33

Hi 1potato!

Do you have children? I would recently checking with their schools as to which materials they are planning to use for their gender sessions. They will almost certainly be from the trans perspective.

The school May be very reluctant to give it to you but if you argue your case and that you are trying to educate yourself, they will probably give it to you.

Good luck!

Doubletoilandtrouble · 09/11/2021 15:34
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LobsterNapkin · 09/11/2021 15:50

[quote julieca]@foxgoosefinch I have read for a third time every post since my original post about racism. Not one of the posts after my post talks about racism. There are lots of - we are not going to be nice and we don't have to get things perfect kind of stuff.
And I have seen lots of women explain why comparing this to blackface is racist. It still continually happens.[/quote]
There are at least a few which do, there is a discussion of comparisons to BLM for example.

But what I would say about the comparison to blackface specifically - this is a thing some people disagree about. Some people who are black think it is a good comparison, others don't. Same with people who are not black. It's also the case that different people have different ideas about what counts as blackface or what's wrong with it. There are probably a higher than average number of GC women who don't think according to id politics assumptions anyway, so that will be a divide right there.

That doesn't mean any of them are racist.

Also, a comparison does not mean people think they are identical. It just means they think one situation is similar enough, or is similar in a specific way, and that is helpful in understanding the second issue.

Differences of opinion over these things should be within what can be discussed productively. If people can't stand that level of disagreement they aren't going to be able to participate in a lot of these kinds of serious discussions. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are being "driven away."

ArabellaScott · 09/11/2021 15:52

Differences of opinion over these things should be within what can be discussed productively. If people can't stand that level of disagreement they aren't going to be able to participate in a lot of these kinds of serious discussions. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are being "driven away."

Absolutely.

Helleofabore · 09/11/2021 15:59

@Artichokeleaves

Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

There is very little point coming on to this thread to moan at women while making it clear that clever, intelligent and educated males would never lower themselves to get their hands dirty actually listening to women.

So don't listen to women. Block your ears to what they say. Avoid them like the plague for being so rude as to refuse to hand over their rights and freedoms and safety to you. Make it clear that you feel they're stupid, beneath you and exist to merely do what their betters (obvs these educated elite) tell them.

Just don't be surprised that these women have lost all patience with them and you, and have no further interest in your causes. You have actively and personally helped to make them too busy trying to pick up their pieces of their own rights and needs. If you alienate and offend women, why are you still expecting them to be nice and sweet about it?!

Having a vagina makes me no one's mum. And masochism isn't a kink I have.

This!

Oh... and women still say NO!

LobsterNapkin · 09/11/2021 16:00

@bordermidgebite

Btw I have been called a man before in here and it doesn't bother me. Not sure what the big deal is there?
It's annoying but more than that I think it's deeply disrespectful. It's similar to "if you don't vote for me you ain't really black," to controversially compare race and sex based issues.

I once or twice years ago had people tell me I must be a man because I not only had the wrong opinions, I wrote like a man. Like, what, I don't talk about my feelings enough? What the heck is that supposed to mean?

terryleather · 09/11/2021 16:07

@Artichokeleaves

Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

There is very little point coming on to this thread to moan at women while making it clear that clever, intelligent and educated males would never lower themselves to get their hands dirty actually listening to women.

So don't listen to women. Block your ears to what they say. Avoid them like the plague for being so rude as to refuse to hand over their rights and freedoms and safety to you. Make it clear that you feel they're stupid, beneath you and exist to merely do what their betters (obvs these educated elite) tell them.

Just don't be surprised that these women have lost all patience with them and you, and have no further interest in your causes. You have actively and personally helped to make them too busy trying to pick up their pieces of their own rights and needs. If you alienate and offend women, why are you still expecting them to be nice and sweet about it?!

Having a vagina makes me no one's mum. And masochism isn't a kink I have.

Artichokeleaves, I think I love you!!!
bordermidgebite · 09/11/2021 16:08

I don't Find it disrespectful, possibly sexist

if it's often used to try and shut people down , whereupon it's a personal attack which often means the person is struggling to attack the argument , or just fed up

( Btw I am aware of what I said earlier, there was a context there about trying to explain the difference between what and how things are said ) ( I probably failed ) ( there that's a very female thing to say)

Stopthisnow · 09/11/2021 16:09

I couldn’t care less if followers of misogynistic ideologies think I’m ‘unkind’ or ‘mean’, for not having empathy for misogynists, for rejecting their misogynistic ideologies and highlighting the dehumanisation of woman at the root of them. My empathy is reserved for women, lesbian women, children and young people who have been (and continue to be) harmed by those regressive misogynistic ideologies.

Gender ideology is an elitist, regressive misogynistic ideology, that doesn’t view women as human’s who happen to be born female. It has originated in western universities, and is being forced onto the women of various countries from the top down, it dehumanises the women of those countries, and robs them of their rights. Nothing about this ideology is progressive, it harms women of all races and sexualities in any counties it gets a foothold in.

There are other sites now where women can speak far more freely than they can here. Where women are able to name this ideology for what it is. Where women can call males men. This site apparently doesn’t permit such heresy.

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