Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

Oxfam … withdrew a board game from sale which is about women and girls’ achievements intended to encourage little girls. Not very kind of them. I wrote and they answered saying they did this to support their LGBT staff.

Oh god, I hadn’t heard of this. So celebrating women and encouraging girls is somehow anti-trans? (Oxfam can’t be saying it’s anti-LGB, because high-achieving people are as likely as anyone else to be gay or lesbian.

So women must be silenced, belittled and hidden from view. Thanks, Oxfam.

Oh, I'm angry for sure. I've been involved in some stuff in real life, including confrontations with the kids' school, where I've been on my own, and not backing down! I'm not afraid to assert my position nor am I interested in compromising the safety of women and girls.

I still try (not always successfully!) to word things thoughtfully, on here and in real life. While it is 'one side against the other' in terms of TRAs, Stonewall etc, there are also many young people caught up in this, and many women who are like me a few years ago, and not quite sure what's going on. So when I post on here I'm thinking about the invisible readers too.

I know that might come across as tone policing to some people who have a different style, but it's not particularly aimed at them. I genuinely appreciate the posters with a very direct style as they are often able to communicate points very clearly.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

Boycotting a company isn't 'cancel culture' Trying to have a company shut down or harassing their employees or CEO is 'cancel culture'

You know what - when you've been in this debate for years your tolerance for bullshit gets eroded away to pretty much nothing. I'm sure lots of posters are less naice and accommodating and 'look at both sides' than they were a couple of years ago. That just means they are tired. Purity politics aren't helpful.

This.

I’m allowed to decide where I spent my money. I don’t want to know the religious, ideological or political affiliations of staff who serve me in a shop / cafe/ my doctor /my solicitor.

I want good service even if my beliefs are not the same as theirs.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

The issue with the trans situation is firstly that it is unscientific, and secondly that adherence to that unscientific dogma by certain elements is being used to erode female rights and safety.

Hasn’t the tone always had a dash of malevolence OP? There are lots of people with various agendas on these boards, the anonymity makes it very easy to push narratives and rile certain demographics, I would not be surprised if a fair few posters are on the payroll or volunteer for specific organisations who would benefit from a presence here…

I come here because you get a good view of the hideous world our society has become without having to physically be in it.

@ViceLikeBlip I would like you to consider why you thought of this board as a safe space. Safe from what? Safe to do what?

Feminism is not a passive consumer activity; its an active movement. Women here are able to collate facts and figures and write with passion because they are talking about issues that they are directly involved with; the NHS, prisons, the women's sector, their own workplace, the schools their children attend.

We are facing organisations that are breaking the law. Women have had to fundraise over a million pounds to challenge organisations that are breaking the law.

I would like you to read the post by Needmoresleep, especially the part about people reacting in a negative way to assertive behaviours. Then reconsider why you are upset by women's plain speech, and why we are banned from talking this plainly elsewhere.

One of the issues too is the derailing techniques frequently used by posters who may not always be genuine/good faith posters. These are designed to wind people up, and it’s hard to keep your cool with it getting annoyed when you’re on the receiving end. These techniques include systematically misrepresenting what others are writing, introducing errors / mixing other posters up and “accusing” them of having said various things; using insults then complaining about other posters’ “tone”; acting wounded at things that haven’t actually been said by anyone, getting angry, self putting and upset, claiming their “identity” and “lived experience” have been disregarded or mocked (when that hasn’t happened), refusing to answer questions then claiming GC posters won’t debate, calling others nasty and MN an echo chamber, and then flouncing.

This happens so repeatedly that it can hardly be a surprise when, having been goaded, women are angry.

And then all the accusations come out about how women aren’t kind or reasonable, relying on all sorts of ingrained stereotypes about what women should be like - when some posters seem to be operating under the default assumption that they are like the teenager who gets to say anything they like to Mum, while Mum is meant to be kindly and longsuffering and reasonable even when being kicked at by an angry child yelling “LALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU YOU ARE MEEEEAAAAAN.”

@ViceLikeBlip

Yes, I absolutely understand that women are angry, that they've been shat on from all angles, and there's a feeling of euphoria that we're actually "allowed" to discuss these things much more freely now than we have been in the past couple of years. I remember when you couldn't get more than 4 comments into a thread without the whole thing being deleted for "transphobia".

But my fight was only ever with extreme trans rights activists, and those looking to deliberately abuse the system and find new ways to harm women. My fight was never with trans people as a community. For example, I have no problem with regular trans people requesting certain pronouns, or even proudly displaying their chosen pronouns (but there's exactly zero chance that will ever be "declaring" my own pronouns)

OP your fight might only be with extreme trans rights activists but I suspect you are in a privileged position where you haven’t met many amab trans people.

I was once a naive trans ally trying not to wonder why I was unlucky enough to only ever work/encounter the scary aggressive amab trans people.
*Before anyone reprimands me, not all amab trans people are like that, (I’m sure I’m unlucky I just haven’t met any that aren’t yet ).

If you’re happy to use chosen pronouns are you ok with women who make a mistake being abused?

What about women who can’t bring themselves to call someone who is clearly male female? Are you ok with them getting abused? Banned from social media platforms?

How are you going to feel the first time you get abuse for not declaring your pronouns?

Why do you think all women on this board should be at exactly the same stage in awareness of the harms to women as you?

I don't have a gender identity. I am who I am. If M&S staff feel the need to signal theirs, or worse still if they are being coerced by their management to reveal theirs, I am put off. M&S is Percy Pigs and comfortable knickers with reliable elastic. I don't care if staff are gay, straight or bi, if they are trans or non-binary, I don't care what colour their skin is, or what religion or ethnicity, or what health problems or disability. Don't tell me, just let me get on with my shopping. I just want to be served in a professional manner.

If they can't do this without signalling their adherence to a gender woo, a woo that is harming vulnerable women and girls, then obviously I am reluctant to shop there. (Plus they have about the most plastic packaging that food can possibly have. Why is it that they care more about gender than the environment?) Why should I be scolded for this. I shop where I feel comfortable.

Women talking as an echo chamber seems a common theme. 51% of the population is an almighty echo chamber, and in a democracy, one which is worth listening to. A friend was talking about a consultation their organisation had carried out. The D&I people quickly dismissed female voices and concerns as a pile on. More of the women should be kind and do what they were told. Not dissimilar to the Hampstead Ponds consultation which Private Eye has finally, after about three years, written about.

I am starting to rant. How is questioning any of this bizarre gender stuff, thought up in US sociology departments in the 90s, transphobic? I have no problem with the fact that gender dysphoria exists. It does in all societies, but is rare. (Other than in places where homosexuality is disapproved of.) What I object to is the #nodebate and the blatant unwillingness to consider the needs of (vulnerable) women and girls.

you will find … a fixed belief that women deserve this and the only possible solution is that women obey. My answer and many women's answer to this is No. That wont ever be happening. And there will be women who will go to prison for this if necessary.

Superb post, Artichokeleaves. Your whole long post makes the point very clearly. Any ‘compromise’ we’re offered is a loss of our rights. ‘Be kind’ means give them away without protest. No, thank you.

@longestlurkerever

I'm with you op. I've flirted with this board because I agree with many of thw arguments made but I always end up in the same place, feeling like there's an anti trans and toxic undercurrent that I don't want to be part of. I don't know if it's got particularly worse recently but it certainly hasn't got better and I can't see genuine progress being made from such a starting point. I know you'll get sneery and aggressive responses to your post but I wanted to support your sentiment because I'm not sure these boards are fully representative of the range of feelings I. Mumsnet. It's quite a scary board to post on.

I'm a reader rather than poster on FWR. I'm not a 'swearer'/forceful/a wordsmith/able to put the fire into someone's belly. I'm reasonably knowledgeable about the attack on women's rights, but wouldn't be able to debate. I absolutely 100% respect those posters who do this time and time again, who stand up for women on this board. I see lots of passion and righteous anger, not sneery and aggressive posters. I see brave believers who are doing for me what I can't (or won't) do. I agree that be nice is for fairy tales.

As PPs have said, if you're not comfortable on this board, you can move on. I believe women should stand together on this and that means accepting some uncomfortable truths now and again. We can have different views but if we allow cracks to show then they will be exploited by those who want to shut us down.

@PatsArrow Having lived in a bedsit with 2 gay friends in Vauxhall in the mid 90's, I was VERY immersed in gay rights and years later....naturally thought this was the same right?

Yes, exactly: that’s the sleight of hand of welding the T onto LGB. Of course I’m pro gay rights! But the antics of Stonewall have now become literally homophobic. It’s insane: truly “Alice through the looking glass” stuff. And that’s just one aspect. There’s also the insidious effect of gaslighting children. People get banned for using the “g” word, but that’s what it is on a societal level.

So no wonder people are now pushing back. It’s never about individual people’s “right to exist”. It’s about a hugely harmful ideology.

The nuanced argument is not thinking racism is acceptable e.g. all the talk of comparing womanface to blackface is racist.
Not dismissing away some of the leading people like PP racism.
Not reacting to every attempt to address inequalities for LGBT people with outrage e.g. have seen complaints about attempts to address inequalities in health provision dismissed as why is this necessary. Some of the reactions and outrage simply show some peoples underlying homophobia.

Well, OP, this is not an echo chamber. Hold true to your own judgement. Use your common sense and your compassion. Keep asking questions, keep thinking, keep examining the evidence.

You are not required to agree with everyone or everything. In fact, if you were, that would be a big red flag right there.

Disagreement, debate and dissent is all really healthy and necessary.

We can have different views but if we allow cracks to show then they will be exploited by those who want to shut us down.

With the greatest respect, bollocks to that. I say cracks are part and parcel of a healthy environment that does not require groupthink.

If you've been around this movement for any length of time you may well see arguments, fights, disagreements and rebuttals. That's normal. That's how we arrive at sound conclusions - by airing differences of opinion and continuing to work for the betterment of all concerned. We're not here to score points. We're here to talk things through and work out how to find solutions that can work for everyone as best they can.

I would hazard a guess that most women here are largely happy to be proven wrong on most things. Given robust evidence and rational argument.

The key is the 'proven' bit. Ad homs and vague accusations of our tone being wrong or us being 'unkind' don't really mean much, in the end.

@Helleofabore

We get accused of being an echo chamber constantly. I have seen it numerous times even just today.

The regular posters on these boards have always been diverse in their thinking. They constantly challenge each other and where they draw their lines.

That is what makes this board NOT the echo chamber many people project when they call it that, while hypocritically preferring their own echo chambers.

I don’t want to post on in an echo chamber. I want to read others well constructed arguments. Along with the evidence supporting those arguments to challenge my own.

Everytime a study comes out, or new stats, I genuinely re-evaluate my position. However, I most certainly push back on emotionally manipulative tactics and we have certainly seen a whole lot of those.

Oh no it isn't!

(sorry - too early?)

@TurquoiseBaubles

Women are angry. I presume we are allowed to be?

Even a few years ago it was thought that we could all talk amicably, and that if only people knew about the effect of aggressive trans activism on women, it would stop and we could work out a compromise. It's been more and more brought to out notice (or shoved in our faces) that it isn't possible to reach a compromise, so many of us are now just at the "fuck off stage".

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough.

This.

I’m so fucking angry and my position on all of this has definitely become harder and less tolerant as time has gone on.

As someone who’d describe herself as measured, liberal and a true ally of all the ‘outsiders’ in society and anyone who struggles to be heard and seen, I now find myself having to question my own thoughts and feelings towards certain groups, which shocks and saddens me. The vocal minority banging on about trans rights definitely colours my view of all things rainbow, ‘kind’ and inclusive.

I have to check myself and mentally avoid conflating my anger and frustration as a woman with a general negativity towards all things and all people LGBTQ. That’s NOT who I am but sometimes I have to remind myself to maintain balance. So I understand where you’re coming from, OP. I’m extremely conflicted in how I feel about the nature of this debate and the direction it’s heading in.

But there’s no doubt in my mind where I stand.

Completely agree with your post @Doubletoilandtrouble - the reason I feel so strongly about this is that my daughters are on the brink of becoming teenagers and facing into the storm of peer pressure now linked with gender ideology.

A young girl I know is sleepwalking down a road towards puberty blockers, binders and surgery and it's terrifying to see it happen and feel helpless to intervene. Pronouns on M&S badges, gender neutral toilets etc. may all seem relatively harmless and not worth getting worked up about but it's all part of a spectrum which leads to real and lasting damage for vulnerable girls and women.

We're angry. We're fucking furious. What else do you expect?

arabella

Yes. Cracks in arguments show there is more discussion to be had. More research, more debate.

I have found that the more discussion, research etc the more solid the foundation for our arguments. The more robust they are, the more it becomes clear that opposing arguments are built on poorly fabricated foundations. They crumble as soon as you even look at them. That is why those supporting those arguments want us to be nice.

@Coyoacan

As someone who is more concerned about the effects of the trans ideology on children, the trouble with being kind with pronouns is that we are helping to create the pretence that it is really possible to change sex. Resulting in more mutilated youngsters. So being kind is being harmful

Yes. The harm to children and young people should be shouted about more. Very few people, especially those with children, grandchildren etc would think taking 'unnecessary' drugs with 'extreme' side effects is ever a great idea; especially below the age of 18. The indoctrination with unscientific gender identity ideology is starting in nurseries I understand. It is terrifying. The least people in England can do (I fear Scotland and Wales may be lost causes given the current ruling parties) is ensure that schools comply with the revised guidance. Have we learnt nothing from previous safeguarding scandals? Catholic church, Rotherham, Savile etc.

I think the tone has changed everywhere, not just on MN. I think it's a combination of a few things.
We're reaching a tipping point. I keep seeing women say they only became aware of the real issues over the last year or so. The difference between now and even last year is staggering.
Us old hands are used to carefully tiptoeing on MN because of the monitoring and deletions. The newer women aren't used to doing that or know that we're not 'allowed' to state the bleeding obvious.
Once you see how bad it is, it can't be unseen and it hits you like a landslide. There are huge numbers of women going through that right now and they're coming out furious.

I should add that as tone goes, if the worst on here is that women are saying they don't want to shop at M&S and don't think much of mandatory pronoun badges, then we're pretty much still in the being polite stage of the discourse.

[quote MidsomerMurmurs]**@PatsArrow* Having lived in a bedsit with 2 gay friends in Vauxhall in the mid 90's, I was VERY immersed in gay rights and years later....naturally thought this was the same right?*

Yes, exactly: that’s the sleight of hand of welding the T onto LGB. Of course I’m pro gay rights! But the antics of Stonewall have now become literally homophobic. It’s insane: truly “Alice through the looking glass” stuff. And that’s just one aspect. There’s also the insidious effect of gaslighting children. People get banned for using the “g” word, but that’s what it is on a societal level.

So no wonder people are now pushing back. It’s never about individual people’s “right to exist”. It’s about a hugely harmful ideology.[/quote]
Very much so, all of the above.

And TRAs are just like Humpty Dumpty in Alice Through the Looking Glass, with their perversion of the meaning of words to mean "exactly what they want them to mean"

As many PP have said, there is definitely a difference between boycotting a shop (choosing where to spend your hard-earned) and trying to cancel/platform/sack a writer or professor.

That said, I will (occasionally) shop at M&S as they make excellent knickers. I view their name badge pronouning as faintly ridiculous corporate virtue signalling and nothing more. It doesn't affect me. I didn't stop using Gilette Venus just because of their grandstanding/wokery, as they are the only razors I like. That would be cutting my legs to ribbons to spite my face.

I do think there is a lack of nuance and people sometimes post as though all trans people were infiltrating women's prisons and so on. It must be deeply hurtful e.g. to mothers of perfectly lovely transmen and transwomen who probably have enough hurdles to face anyway without people deciding they are by default perverts / rapists/ severely mentally ill/ insert prejudice here.