Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

Op I'm really angry about what is happening, things are getting more heated, this is the fight of our lives.
I can't stand by playing nice with people who will screw me and my daughters over at the first opportunity, I am their advocate I will protect them with everything I have.
This board has made me question my beliefs and I mostly lurk absorbing all the fantastic intelligent posters who link the arguments and research. I started from a completely ignorant position, I read this board and it just clicked with me, how had I been so blind, how had I not realized what was happening?
So I've read and listened and watched and talked and every day I get angrier and angrier. The angrier I get, the less tolerance for the bullshit I have.
So here we are, I would love to go back to a place of finding a happy medium, working together to create peace, but the other side are not willing to do that, they just want to push further and further, the further they push the harder I push back.
Now you get fuck all from me not even a pronoun.

@ArabellaScott

We can have different views but if we allow cracks to show then they will be exploited by those who want to shut us down.

With the greatest respect, bollocks to that. I say cracks are part and parcel of a healthy environment that does not require groupthink.

If you've been around this movement for any length of time you may well see arguments, fights, disagreements and rebuttals. That's normal. That's how we arrive at sound conclusions - by airing differences of opinion and continuing to work for the betterment of all concerned. We're not here to score points. We're here to talk things through and work out how to find solutions that can work for everyone as best they can.

I would hazard a guess that most women here are largely happy to be proven wrong on most things. Given robust evidence and rational argument.

The key is the 'proven' bit. Ad homs and vague accusations of our tone being wrong or us being 'unkind' don't really mean much, in the end.

Yes. For anyone fairly new to this or to feminist history I recommend seeking out a documentary called She's Beautiful When She's Angry*. It's about the 2nd wave of feminism in the 60s/70s and perfectly highlights that women are not the Borg when tackling difficult activism.

The main difference of course is back then the internet didn't exist so all the stories about falling outs and diverging opinions have often only come to light in decades since through a retelling of personal stories.

None of that means they should have packed it in and just not bothered.

*it used to be on Netflix but not sure if it still is.

Not read the whole thread and I may get deleted for saying what I’m about to say….

But I wondered whether there are times when TRA are commenting on these threads more extreme anti-trans views to ‘prove’ that MN is everything that they say we are.

This is why the moderators are so important.

@OhDear2200

Not read the whole thread and I may get deleted for saying what I’m about to say….

But I wondered whether there are times when TRA are commenting on these threads more extreme anti-trans views to ‘prove’ that MN is everything that they say we are.

This is why the moderators are so important.

Judging by the speed that some things get deleted yet still manage to get screenshots as "proof" I agree.

While in general I’d agree with your final sentiment, I think on a feminist board it’s hugely important to push back against complying with female socialisation. We are already conditioned to hold women to a higher standard, to expect women to get it right 100% of the time, to prioritise moderating our voice to be kind to others

Absolutely agree with this from you upthread bloodingutters, and I certainly didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. You can see it being leveraged here in real time, every day, when someone rocks up to implore us to just be a bit nicer about it all. It was always this way in feminism- if only you said it the right way, if only you weren’t so shrill and so unreasonable, if only you were a bit more ladylike or less extreme…it’s all just manipulative deflection.

There are some powerful posts up above - thank you all. Yes I'm angry too - the unfairness of it all is galling. I've been on these boards for many years now (low poster but frequent reader!) and I too thought I could see a change in tone recently. It's for the better though, as posters can be more honest and less convoluted. Some way to go though...

Apologies @AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

When I mentioned people claiming they felt unsafe, I wasn’t referring to changing rooms and I should have made that clearer. I was under the impression that someone said the pronoun badges made women feel unsafe.

I fully understand feeling uncomfortable and wary when I see pronoun badges, but it is not a given that a company using pronoun badges will have inadequate safeguarding.

If you see them and ask about changing room policy and find it’d mixed sex, THEN it’s fine to say you won’t shop there as you feel unsafe. Equally if you disagree with the whole concept of pronoun badges, then it’s fine to not shop there on principle.

But if we start down the line of “pronoun badges make me feel unsafe” we’re getting into “my lecturer saying something I disagreed with made me feel unsafe” and I 100% don’t want to go there.

So if nobody said that, I apologize, but that was the impression I had.

"We can have different views but if we allow cracks to show then they will be exploited by those who want to shut us down.

With the greatest respect, bollocks to that. I say cracks are part and parcel of a healthy environment that does not require groupthink."

ArabellaScott, with the greatest respect your bollocks are misplaced. I'm not advocating groupthink. My comment was that more timid or milder women should stand by the more forceful women even when that causes personal discomfort ("oh no, she said bollocks to me!") rather than allow 'divide and conquer'.

(Now I've typed the word bollocks three times I need to go and lie down)

Agree completely, Sophoclesthefox. Anyone requesting that women be a bit kinder or a bit nicer sets off an immediate warning bell with me.

@TurquoiseBaubles

Women are angry. I presume we are allowed to be?

Even a few years ago it was thought that we could all talk amicably, and that if only people knew about the effect of aggressive trans activism on women, it would stop and we could work out a compromise. It's been more and more brought to out notice (or shoved in our faces) that it isn't possible to reach a compromise, so many of us are now just at the "fuck off stage".

We tried being nice. It didn't work. We've had enough.

Yep

@ViceLikeBlip

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

I will boycott anything I like, if I think they are against me as a sex class and treat me and my beliefs with disdain and outright aggression (I am a biological conformist and feminist I am a woman because I was born one I do not believe in gender as that is built on stereotypes to control peoples freedoms).

This movement now this Gender is above sex thing, goes far beyond actual transmen and transwomen, its a Ideology and a totalitarian one at that IMHO that forces increasingly strict gender stereotypes and male freedoms at the expense of females and tries to threaten or silence anyone who disagrees with it, it is championed by misogynists for misogynists.

that is not something I will support and any company, politician etc giving support to this bullying mens rights movement, will not get my custom or my vote.

[quote donquixotedelamancha]@RobinMoiraWhite

And if any of we uppity trans women comment, we usually get comments attacking us rather than dealing with the substance of any comment we make.

You get plenty of replies of substance to your points. MN is a blunt place, AIBU is far harsher than here. I'd much rather read more of your arguments that woe is me type stuff.

The general quality of debate from "your side" is far poorer than the GC side on here. It would be lovely if everyone were articulate and constructive, but also very boring.[/quote]
I agree with what you say about the quality of some of the comment. Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

For me the tone was set when I was appearing in O'Donnell v Times in Edinburgh, corrected an incorrect statement about the case and explained politely that there was a limit on the public comment I could make.

Comment then turned to my choice of clothing...

It's not so much the pronoun badges that put me off M&S, to be honest. More the underwear reviews.

ArabellaScott, with the greatest respect your bollocks are misplaced. I'm not advocating groupthink. My comment was that more timid or milder women should stand by the more forceful women even when that causes personal discomfort ("oh no, she said bollocks to me!") rather than allow 'divide and conquer'.

It happens. One puts one's bollocks in a sensible place and ten minutes later they have vanished.

more timid or milder women should stand by the more forceful women

Hm. Well, I don't know. We can 'stand by' each other without worrying too much about disagreement, I think. I strongly disagree with various women (and men) involved in the debates, on some points. Still standing generally in the feminist area, wondering where all these bollocks have come from and where to put the bloody things.

I agree with what you say about the quality of some of the comment. Given that my trans friends include entrepreneurs, academics, engineers, lawyers and virtually all of them have taken a look at Mumsnet and wouldnt put themselves through the effect of engaging here, you might feel that you are missing out and ask yourself why they don't engage. They don't feel they are missing out.

I'm an academic, @RobinMoiraWhite, who's spent a long time researching and writing on this field. I've posted several serious and genuine questions, questions with substance, to you in the past; and you've not answered them. I've been on threads where other lawyers have asked very informed questions of you; and you haven't engaged with them. Why not?

It happens. One puts one's bollocks in a sensible place and ten minutes later they have vanished

What you need, @ArabellaScott, is definitely some kind of packer or binder that could tuck them up and keep them right there in place. Surely, surely there is a high street cosmetic company somewhere who could provide you with a cheap one if you just pop in no questions asked....?

And as usual everone ignores my comment about racism.

@julieca

And as usual everone ignores my comment about racism.

Er, there were several comments about race and gender upthread responding to your post?

I've been reading this board for a few years now. A frequent reader, an infrequent poster.

At first I was a bit shocked by the language and forcefulness of some posts. Not now.

I'm tired of all this bollocks and I'm angry because it's not just bollocks, it's damaging bollocks and it's being done on the sly. Women not being listened to and then being told to 'tone it down' when they speak a bit louder because they are not being listened to also makes me angry.
Either we are right or we are wrong. Engage with the content, it's the content that matters, not the tone.

• Heads off to lie down in the 'too many bollocks' corner. -

Now I will not hear a word against M&S knickers. There's being provocative and then there's outright spoiling for WW3.

And it is all bollocks, isn't it?

Sorry, OP. This reads like you're telling me to 'be kind'

@julieca

And as usual everone ignores my comment about racism.

Just to add, this is what I mean. Several posters engaged with this topic on this very thread and then you post that everyone ignored you. There are countless times when - there's another one on this thread just above too - posters claim they have not been engaged with and it's just not true. You can read threads where they have been engaged with, and the topic has been engaged with (often the original poster doesn't then respond); and then they claim there's no engagement.

Well we can see it isn't the case; we can read the threads and see it right there - with far fewer deletions now. The "everyone ignored me/they didn't engage" comments are just outright wrong.

I do think there is a lack of nuance and people sometimes post as though all trans people were infiltrating women's prisons and so on. It must be deeply hurtful e.g. to mothers of perfectly lovely transmen and transwomen who probably have enough hurdles to face anyway without people deciding they are by default perverts / rapists/ severely mentally ill/ insert prejudice here.

Not one person here thinks all transwomen are rapists, just as not one person here believes all men are rapists. However, when talking about safe spaces for women when they are vulnerable, nobody would deny that all men should be denied access. Why is it therefore unkind to point out that, like other males, transwomen are just as likely to be a danger to women in these spaces and that to allow them access to these spaces is completely illogical.

@foxgoosefinch no I have just double-checked, there was not.
All movements are made up of people, and since some people are racist, racism will be present. But the GC movement just continually glosses over racism and ignores it, or defends it.
Partly because of the racism of some leading people I suspect.

I would like for uncertain posters to read some of the more debated threads where women are being “mean”.

It is almost always a biological male (transwoman or man) who gives their view, talks about their experiences and possibly about how hard life is for them.

This is countered by women reiterating the “no” and talking about safeguarding concerns or about vulnerable women in general.

Then there will be a poster or two who tells the women off for not being sympathetic enough to the biological male.

And the biological male whining about being badly treated, misunderstood or not asked enough questions about their valuable point of view.

I try to be sympathetic (I always feel deeply for anyone being bullied or going through trauma) but it is always the same formula. Is is like I am expected to always be kind and put the biological males first.

I am a mother but I am not their mother.

And Robin, with all respect, you are upset about the comments about your clothes. I would argue that this is a very female experience. Everyone comments on women’s clothes all the f*cking time. In the office, among “friends”. Women’s clothes will be criticised in newspapers. Nasty comments about clothes have probably been directed at everyone here. But we don’t whine about it.