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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lush Binder Collection

267 replies

Sexnotgender · 08/11/2021 21:06

Assuming this is a way for predominantly children to circumvent parents and get their hands on a binder.

Lush Binder Collection
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
hallouminatus · 10/11/2021 05:47

There's nothing to suggest that the 16+ policy will be enforced at all. The form doesn't even ask for age. G(end)er swap's website includes this page: gc2b.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115015923968-Am-I-too-young-to-bind- which states that they have no age restrictions and implies that no-one is too young to bind.

We do not have age restrictions on our website. However, if you're considering binding at a young age, there are a few things to consider to make sure you're binding safely.

The most important thing to consider is sizing. While your body is most likely still growing, you will need to pay close attention to how your body feels when binding, and size up as needed. Binders should feel snug, not tight. We offer personal sizing assistance, simply email us! 😊

Another thing to keep in mind is how long you will be binding. Many young people are in school for long hours. We highly suggest binding no more than 9 hours in a day.

If you want to bind in your P.E. (physical education) class, you will need to size up. If you feel any pain or discomfort, take the binder off immediately.

We ALWAYS suggest double checking with your doctor before binding if you have any medical condition that may conflict with binding (for example: asthma, skin allergies, scoliosis, joint pain, shoulder/chest pain).

Please email us at [email protected] if you have any questions! 💕🌈💕

hallouminatus · 10/11/2021 06:09

Sorry, the page I quoted above isn't from the gender swap website, although it's linked from there. It's from gc2b, who supply the binders that genderswap distribute.

The gender swap site including the following statement:

G(END)ER SWAP TIPS FOR SAFE BINDING
This document outlines links to information on chest binders and binding safely.
Please note that we do not distribute binders to individuals under the age of 16 years old.
GC2B binders are a manufactured and safe product that is sold worldwide.
Any issues with our binder services can be directed to GC2B directly.
We do not sell binders or profit off binder donations: you can read more about this under our FAQS on our shop page
We do not endorse binders to binders: don’t believe the TERFS

Sophoclesthefox · 10/11/2021 07:36

GC2B binders are a manufactured and safe product that is sold worldwide

The word “manufactured” here is deployed as if it somehow implies “good” or “reliable”. Heroin is manufactured. Products teeming with asbestos were manufactured. What do they imagine they’re saying with this sentence?

We do not endorse binders to binders

Do they mean the second “binders” to read “minors” here, I wonder? If so, that’s sloppy. Doesn’t inspire any confidence.

don’t believe the TERFS

And what if the “t*rf” is your mum or dad, eh?

I’m composing my letter to Lush to share with them why, having been a loyal customer for years (their skincare products were for a while the only ones my sensitive skin could tolerate), I will no longer be patronising them.

KittenKong · 10/11/2021 07:43

Ok still worried about what else such ‘kid-nip’ stores like this are selling in brown paper bags. Hormones?

Elleexxtra · 10/11/2021 08:09

@KittenKong

Ok still worried about what else such ‘kid-nip’ stores like this are selling in brown paper bags. Hormones?
Kid-nip, that's a perfect way to describe it!
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 08:10

Good spot, Sophocles.

I found this last night.

extract

What people use to bind their chests with is a very personal choice, and finding a standard “best type of binder” for everyone is unclear. One study showed that people who used commercial binders experienced increased risk for the highest number of negative symptoms from binding, followed by those who used bandages, and plastic wrap or duct tape (2).

The high amount of negative effects found from commercial binders in this study were a surprise to the researchers, since blogs and other informal resources dedicated to trans men and healthy binding often recommend commercial binders (2,4). This could be due to people wearing binders that are too small, wearing them for longer periods, or wearing more than one at a time. More research is needed, but if you choose to wear a commercial binder, do your research, read reviews online, and make sure it is the right size for you.

helloclue.com/articles/cycle-a-z/chest-binding-tips-and-tricks-for-trans-men-nonbinary-and-genderfluid

They may be manufactured, but that has little to recommend them if manufactured ready to wear items are linked with worse health effects than duct tape?!

KittenKong · 10/11/2021 08:11

So your teen kid can go shopping with her pals in town. Mixed sex changing rooms in Primark, binders and brainwashing in Lush, what next - hand grenades in Smiggle?

ScreamingMeMe · 10/11/2021 08:12

This is horrendous. Genuine concerns based on actual evidence being dismissed as bigotry. I hope there will be a reckoning for all these people who are blithely causing harm to young people and shutting down any debate.

KittenKong · 10/11/2021 08:15

I had to wear a brace for my back for a short period - blow me it hurt like flipping hell (the brace itself) and I couldn’t eat with it on (made me want to vomit). I felt short of breath and very uncomfortable.

Reminds me of the old mortification of the flesh devices...

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/11/2021 08:45

This is horrendous. Genuine concerns based onactual evidencebeing dismissed as bigotry. I hope there will be a reckoning for all these people who are blithely causing harm to young people and shutting down any debate

I regularly wonder what the whole deal is behind constantly moaning about the lack.of health care for trans people whilst simultaneously sabotaging any chance of getting it. Be it altering paperwork so they don't get called for screening, making it hate speech to correctly sex them or endorsing minimum wage untrained retail staff to provide binders.

There comes a point where you have to ask if they got everything they wanted would they be happy or even cope. Because it seems to me its more about maintaining constant victim hood than anything else.

Why else would you think trans.kids being harmed by ill fitting binders after discussing their breasts with complete strangers was anything but a terrible idea. Even those pro binder people could surely admit that a high street shop with untrained non.dbs checked probably staffed by students and part timers is not the best plan.

Sophoclesthefox · 10/11/2021 08:49

That’s even worse than I thought, purgatory Sad

Datun · 10/11/2021 09:04

Placemarking

Helleofabore · 10/11/2021 09:14

They may be manufactured, but that has little to recommend them if manufactured ready to wear items are linked with worse health effects than duct tape?!

Indeed purgatory.

And the teen, this past week or so, lost their nipple just from a binder. I cannot imagine what duct tape is doing to bodies and skin.

Lovelyricepudding · 10/11/2021 09:16

...commercial binders(2,4). This could be due to people wearing binders that are too small, wearing them for longer periods, or wearing more than one at a time

Or it could be because commercial binders are an intrinsically harmful product... an intrinsically harmful product aimed at children. I am trying to think of another product like that which has not been banned and I can't.

CharlieParley · 10/11/2021 09:22

I'll just repost my comment from the thread in May, when another child's mother was taking on the role Lush is assuming here (I have edited the comment where necessary to better speak to this particular reckless move by Lush):

Breast binding can and should be compared to other activities where an individual seeks to alleviate psychological pain by seeking physiological change.

As it frequently causes permanent damage to skin, muscles or bone, always causes physical discomfort with physical pain experienced by three quarters who bind, it can legitimately be compared to and arguably be categorised as self-harm.

Like other forms of self-harm, it is not an effective way to deal with the underlying emotional distress and any relief it provides can therefore only ever be temporary.

Although the 97% figure from the survey quoted by the OP [see below for the link] is already bad enough, I should emphasise that 97% experience at least one negative outcome, and more than half of them experienced at least two negative outcomes.

The authors surveyed only on the 28 negative outcomes most commonly reported in the medical literature and information provided by those who bind.

Here they are in full:

rib fractures, back pain, chest pain, rib or spine changes, bad posture, shoulder pain, shoulder joint ‘popping’, muscle wasting, numbness, headache, overheating, fatigue, weakness, lightheadedness or dizziness, cough, respiratory infections, shortness of breath, heartburn, abdominal pain, digestive issues, breast changes, breast tenderness, scarring, swelling, acne, itch, skin changes and skin infections. [my emphasis]

Separately mentioned were spinal misalignment, fluid build-up in the lungs, collapsed lung, sores and permanent skin damage.

Several skin issues, which were experienced by over half of survey respondents, are associated with poorer outcomes if "chest reconstruction surgery" is pursued later. That's one of the reasons why the transmasculine community is so concerned about the safety of breast binding.

The survey also only asked adults about their experiences. In the developing child negative outcomes can be expected to be worse and occur more often.

That's because there are no safe binding methods. There are no clinical guidelines for binding safely. Commercial binders, which are perceived to be safer by the transmasculine community, are in reality associated with more negative outcomes, but even sports bras and minimisers are included in the list of binding methods leading to negative outcomes. This is not because sports bras are inherently unsafe, but because they are designed to be worn for shorter periods and not for the ten hour duration on seven-days-a-week most respondents chose to wear them.

Furthermore, Lush is not only overstepping a boundary in allowing something that the parent of a child has expressly forbidden - something they have no right to do - they are in my view also enabling children to self-harm.

I would advise Lush that they are interfering with parental rights without having the legal right to do so, wholly without having undertaken a risk assessment of the negative outcomes for these girls health and development and that this interferes with their rights under Article 6 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC).

(This article forms one of the four main principles of the UNCRC and encompasses the right of the child to develop and survive in conditions that do not negatively impact on their physical or mental health.)

Obviously Lush is not a state actor, local authority or a public sector organisation who could be held to account for breaching a child's rights under the UNCRC. But I would not hesitate to point out to them that every child has human rights protected under the UNCRC and that they are not only interfering with one but several of the rights children have with their action.

The other relevant articles are concerned with the rights and responsibilities of parents to look out for the best interests of their child and for all children having a legal guardian as a champion for their wellbeing. No random company can simply assume those rights, however well meaning.

Furthermore Lush should be informed that were any child supplied by Lush to attend PE lessons while wearing a breast binder and collapse as a result of a punctured lung thanks to a rib fractured by the binder (this can and has happened) they would be reported to the police for causing grievous bodily harm to a child. Whatever their liability insurance, I doubt they will be covered or enjoy legal indemnity if a child should be injured as a result of her being supplied a breast binder against her parents' wishes by Lush.

Here is the study mentioned: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675

Of 1800 women surveyed, 50 reported rib fractures caused by binders. That's in adults. In children, who are after all still having to attend mandatory PE lessons, the most severe outcomes like rib fractures would be more likely due to their age, inexperience, developing bodies and higher vulnerability.

MrsJamin · 10/11/2021 09:48

How can we complain more formally about Lush's activities? Not just social media, complain about the activities of the shop itself.

Lovelyricepudding · 10/11/2021 09:57

@MrsJamin

How can we complain more formally about Lush's activities? Not just social media, complain about the activities of the shop itself.
I wonder if an effective route would be to for binders to be regulated as a medical device? That way they would be assessed for safety and efficacy.
uthredswife · 10/11/2021 10:13

This shit is actually dystopian. I can't really believe this happening to our kids. I will never ever step foot in Lush again.

malanimo · 10/11/2021 10:37

@MrsJamin

How can we complain more formally about Lush's activities? Not just social media, complain about the activities of the shop itself.
I wonder if Trading Standards would be interested www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/
MrsWednesdayteatime · 10/11/2021 10:46

The original insta post says to measure carefully as they can't do refunds/exchanges.

So if NB kido gets home with their much wanted breast binder and they've measured incorrectly, and its way too tight....then what? How do they know how tight is too tight. I can imagine most would just carry on anyway, cos you expect it to pinch a bit anyway.

breast binding is NEVER safe

Lovelyricepudding · 10/11/2021 11:08

I often wonder about something much more basic with binders - hygiene. If you only have one how often do you wash it if you are wearing it everyday? Do you just give it a quick swirl in the basin if you don't want your mum to see it? How do you dry it?

foxgoosefinch · 10/11/2021 11:24

That’s probably one of the reasons for the skin infections, not washing them adequately, I imagine.

When I was young I could go for days without washing a bra - hardly thought about it. (Sounds grim, but young women don’t sweat much there.) After having a baby, putting on weight and acquiring norks the size of Sputnik, I regularly get what many older/overweight women do - occasional rashes under the breast, which can be very painful. Needs creams/drying carefully/washing bras every day/occasional antifungals. Not nice but a fact of life!

Never occurred to me that it was a thing that could happen for even a moment before I had DD. But I presume that binding squashes things down, and creates a breeding ground for sweat/bacteria/rashes under and around the breast, especially given the fact binders are also hot and sweaty and not easily washed.

So it’s no surprise the side effects include a high percentage of skin infections. This probably includes infected and raw places under the bound breast which are painful, really difficult to treat and can smell bad if not given air/opportunity to dry and heal.

But yay, let’s “treat” dysphoria by giving young women extra things to feel bad about their body for. How stunning and brave!

KittenKong · 10/11/2021 13:06

@MrsWednesdayteatime

The original insta post says to measure carefully as they can't do refunds/exchanges.

So if NB kido gets home with their much wanted breast binder and they've measured incorrectly, and its way too tight....then what? How do they know how tight is too tight. I can imagine most would just carry on anyway, cos you expect it to pinch a bit anyway.

breast binding is NEVER safe

Kids do grow...
NitroNine · 10/11/2021 20:50

One in eleven children in the UK have asthma; and while it is common, it can be fatal - & a binder would absolutely make treating an attack harder.

40% of children in the UK have been diagnosed with [at least one] allergy.

About one in five children in the UK has eczema.

There is some overlap between the populations, but given none of the conditions is more common in one sex than the other, that’s a HUGE number of people who shouldn’t bind for medical reasons, without even considering much of the list of reasons. Really worryingly, there will be girls who shouldn’t bind for medical reasons who will do so anyway - some thinking it genuinely won’t be a problem; some thinking they’ll be able to self-manage any resulting issues; & some in a self-destructive “I won’t let my health be in charge” mindset of the sort that sees young people with allergies end up in A&E with anaphylaxis after failing to take precautions/young people with epilepsy there because they pushed their seizure threshold beyond ALL its limits (sure I can skip several meals, not sleep for a couple of days & drink loads: what could go wrong?); & forms part of the tangled thinking behind diabulimia.

And of course a girl who develops eczema/other skin issues from binding is totally going to get it checked out. At once. Before she ends up with [serious] infections & wounds that refuse to heal, I mean. (Oh and even if she didn’t previously have skin issues, if she’s got hold of testosterone gel, which we know girls are doing before they’re 18, one side-effect is acne. Combining acne on your chest with binding is going to make your skin incredibly unhappy, to put it in the least unpleasant way possible.)

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