Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff

380 replies

PostingForTheFirstTime · 07/11/2021 09:09

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173649/M-S-diversity-managers-staff-pronoun-badges-customers-know-address-them.html

I will be emailing the appropriate departments advising them that gender ideology is still a hot political topic; its decision to allow men to use women's changing rooms made me so uncomfortable that I will not shop for clothes in their stores any more, but its decision to push a political stance with which I fundamentally disagree means I won't be using them at all from now on.

So sad, because I love their trousers and their Christmas party foods.

OP posts:
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 07/11/2021 10:50

actually, what is just nasty is that a discussion about pronouns on name badges of supermarket staff invariably ends in discussions about male rapists - most people will actually not associate a "Harry (he/him/his)" badge with rape.

It is absolutely relevant because it’s part of a wider discussion.

Being coerced or bullied into stating our gender on our emails/ name badges etc. is part of the ideology that someone’s gender has more significance than any other part of their identity, including their sex. It is this ideology that then leads to males being in female prisons.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2021 10:50

What she said.

bordermidgebite · 07/11/2021 10:50

Which then means that pronouns become valueless in communication and so die out altogether

Hum , almost talking myself into supporting this!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/11/2021 10:51

😁

You old bright side seeker you!

Benjispruce5 · 07/11/2021 10:53

FFS what is there problem? They need to focus on knickers!

Waitwhat23 · 07/11/2021 10:53

A poster on another thread made a great point that if any badges are to be worn at all by public facing staff, why is it only pronouns and not things which are actually useful in terms of customer service? Things like languages spoken, if someone can use BSL, if the staff member can dementia awareness trained etc etc.

As pp have said, the likelihood of actually using 'Clara's' pronouns are slim.

KimikosNightmare · 07/11/2021 10:53

@FaaarkinEll

Another hard of thinking.

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

If that was a response to me- in the last scenario you came up with the correct pronouns are "we / us". No need whatsoever to use Clara's pronouns. It would be very odd to do so than use "we"
334bu · 07/11/2021 10:53

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

Wow! Even our thoughts have to be controlled.

Benjispruce5 · 07/11/2021 10:54

I don’t shop their after they sent my teen to try bras on in the men’s changing room.

Benjispruce5 · 07/11/2021 10:55

There

ScrollingLeaves · 07/11/2021 10:55

Customers would normally only ever need to address staff members as “You”. The staff member’s ‘gender identity’ is not relevant to the transaction.

It would have the opposite effect to assimilation of staff with non conforming gender identities by making them stand out.

It is an ideological/political statement. I will respond in kind and not go there again.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/11/2021 11:01

“Luckyrabbits

So usually I am anti anyone being asked to state their pronouns but I was in H&M the other day and a really nice assistant opened a till for us. I, without thinking said to my daughter, "the really nice lady has opened the till for us" and then I looked at them and actually I panicked as I realised I'd made an assumption and I shouldn't.“

Knowing who is a man and who is a woman is part of a primordial part of us. Our species depends there being two sexes.

As adults we may like to adapt the various outward societal expressions of sex to suit our individual desires but for goodness sake leave children out of it.

Knowing a man from a woman by instinct could also potentially keep a child safer.

MoreJammyDodgersPlease · 07/11/2021 11:04

I filled in the online feedback after a recent visit. One of their questions was something like "which gender do you identify as?". The 'other' option gives you a chance to let them know your thoughts on this.
I can't think of a single instance where I would have needed to know how any of their staff "identifies", or what their preferred pronouns were. Decent customer service does not involve making your customers read and remember what badges the staff are wearing, or making them worry they might be getting it wrong.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2021 11:04

FFS what is there problem? They need to focus on knickers!

They really do need to focus on their customers and what they want, instead of pissing money up the wall further alienating them.

FlyingOink · 07/11/2021 11:10

@IvyTwines2

This is very intrusive. There seems to be this constant push to encourage people to lay all the details of their life out on a slab. In the case of someone in a customer-facing job, interacting daily with hundreds of strangers, this visual prompt for a stranger to start to think of them, not as a checkout worker representing the shop but instead an individual with this or that type of sexual behaviour is actually dangerous.
I don't like name badges for this reason. Creepy men feel a need to use a young woman's name when addressing her, and I've seen how disconcerting this is for the staff member.

I knew a man who worked for an employer who required him to wear his full name on a badge and a terrifying individual looked up his elderly parents with that information and sent them death threats.

No customers wear name badges, and shops manage to serve us fine, we produce ID when required (picking up an order, say). What we don't have is personal information pinned to our chest that someone could use to look us up online.

As for pronouns, it could go two ways. One, hardly anyone bothers putting them on and it becomes a non-story. Two, managers are somehow measured on compliance and shop staff end up all putting their pronouns on regardless of whether they agree, which of course makes anyone with non-standard pronouns a topic of discussion and outs them to hundreds of people they might not have wanted to discuss their inner gender feelings with (or compels them to put standard pronouns on to avoid conflict which undermines the whole point.)

It's a cheap trick for the company, and other retailers, who underpay female shop staff (see recent Tesco case), have hundreds of thousands of employees on tax credits as a result, who fail to ensure employee safety from abusive customers or violent shoplifters, and who often rely on minimal hours contracts which function largely like zero hours contracts. Where is USDAW or Unite on any of this important stuff?

Whitefire · 07/11/2021 11:14

In the sitcom Superstore one of the main characters Amy never wears her name on her badge instead wearing a different, random name badge everyday.

Flossieskeeper · 07/11/2021 11:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

334bu · 07/11/2021 11:18

It's a cheap trick for the company, and other retailers, who underpay female shop staff (see recent Tesco case), have hundreds of thousands of employees on tax credits as a result, who fail to ensure employee safety from abusive customers or violent shoplifters, and who often rely on minimal hours contracts which function largely like zero hours contracts. Where is USDAW or Unite on any of this important stuff
Virtue signalling for the sake of it just like companies like Asda( parent company Walmart) did with BLM

www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/walmart-exploits-black-lives-while-paying-lip-service-black-lives-ncna1231493

FlyingOink · 07/11/2021 11:24

In fact I can see a lot of uncomfortable conversation looming for M&S staff here. The scope to get into trouble for not expressing the correct opinion when this is commented on by customers, and the emotional labour of having to have these conversations will have been underestimated

That's another very good point. How many shop staff were initially apologetic to customers when plastic carrier bags stopped being handed out for free? Did they all toe the company line? What happens when a cashier jokes that she was made to put these pronouns on her badge and she doesn't really understand what all the fuss is about and some TRA with an axe to grind makes a formal complaint because she's said the wrong thing?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/11/2021 11:32

That's a really important point.

TreXX · 07/11/2021 11:34

Creepy men feel a need to use a young woman's name when addressing her, and I've seen how disconcerting this is for the staff member.

Yes, I used to work in Boots and my name badge was 'Miss ReXX'

So many creepy men asked me my first name! I never told them, I either told them it's 'Miss ReXX' to you or to mind their own business or if I felt threatened a random name.

Names have power.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/11/2021 11:38

“FlyingOink

IvyTwines2
This is very intrusive. There seems to be this constant push to encourage people to lay all the details of their life out on a slab. In the case of someone in a customer-facing job, interacting daily with hundreds of strangers, this visual prompt for a stranger to start to think of them, not as a checkout worker representing the shop but instead an individual with this or that type of sexual behaviour is actually dangerous.
I don't like name badges for this reason. Creepy men feel a need to use a young woman's name when addressing her, and I've seen how disconcerting this is for the staff member.”……and all the rest you wroteFlyingOink

Completely agree. At the very least it is over familiar and intrusive.

EyesOpening · 07/11/2021 11:39

@FaaarkinEll

Where on earth are you lot going to shop when you find out tesco sainsbury and asda are following suit?
I shop at Tesco, Sainsbury’s and Asda, I use the scan as you shop mostly, if not doing an online order, but if I do speak to someone, I say “excuse me, can you point me in the direction of/have you got any of?” etc etc etc. I can’t recall using third person pronouns, although maybe I should be saying “hello, Clara, how are him today?”

After watching some videos courtesy of Nig Heke, I think I’ll only ever buy clothes online now, where they come sealed and not tried on by anyone.

FindTheTruth · 07/11/2021 11:43

Wearing a pronouns badge is a declaration that you have a gender identity and believe in the philosophical/religious/political belief of gender ideology - it’s not a neutral act.

I don’t have a gender identity. I use pronouns for trans colleagues and friends with no problems as they dress and present in accordance with their pronouns and there is no need to have a badge. A pronouns badge is NOT so that you know what pronouns to use, it is an INSTRUCTION from extreme lobby groups and it’s not kind. It’s a way to find out who disagrees.

A pronouns badge signals a controversial view of sex and gender where gender identity is more important than sex. While most people aren’t aware it,...

For those of us who disagree with the ideology it creates a sense of fear.

Do the MARKS AND SPENCER and badge wearing staff believe things such as:

  • That Lesbians who state same-sex attraction only, are as bad as racists?
  • That lesbian female only spaces be shut down?
  • That Self -ID become law?
  • That gender identity replace sex in law?
  • That children should be taught gender identity and encouraged to choose a ‘gender identity’? a pathway to transition for some and medicalisation for some
  • That Women in prison should be locked up with rapists to validate the rapists?
  • Women sports should be mixed sex? therefore destroying women’s sports
  • That rapists and child sexual abusers be referred to as ‘she/her’? in the court and news if they want it
  • That males with a penis can use communal dressing rooms, showers, spas where women and children are naked or partially naked?

A pronoun badge is NOT neutral. And if anyone is compelled to wear a pronoun badge it could constitute “direct discrimination on grounds of philosophical belief,” and therefore would breach equality legislation

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/11/2021 11:44

Believing in gender is a religion. As someone said upthread I don't believe in the gender binary. I sure as hell understand there's a sex binary though. It's like a shop 'encouraging' staff to adopt this new uniform (strictly optional doncherknow).

What about shoppers who find christianity frankly sinister? what about staff who feel the same?

MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff