MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173649/M-S-diversity-managers-staff-pronoun-badges-customers-know-address-them.html

I will be emailing the appropriate departments advising them that gender ideology is still a hot political topic; its decision to allow men to use women's changing rooms made me so uncomfortable that I will not shop for clothes in their stores any more, but its decision to push a political stance with which I fundamentally disagree means I won't be using them at all from now on.

So sad, because I love their trousers and their Christmas party foods.

What purpose do they serve? I mean on the coal face, when Clara is scanning my shopping why do I need to know that Clara's pronouns are she/her? How is that going to improve customer service or even the perception of it?

If the likes of M&S think that the only way to make people feel safe is to wear a badge with pronouns on then they have major issues that need looking at first.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Change the perception of women, so that pronouns would not be perceived as an invitation to discriminate.

The only way to do that would be to make their pronouns irrelevant

no, the best way to do that would be to squash the patriarchy and its associated assumptions. People would not have preconceptions regarding my abilities or behaviours and I would still be a woman.

When are customers going to be referring to shop staff using pronouns?

If I'm directed to speak to another member of staff by Roger, it doesn't help me to say "your colleague told me to come and talk to you" if it's important for them to know which colleague - either the colleague's actual identity matters (e.g. because Roger is the manager and this customer service person works for Roger) or their identity is irrelevant as they were just pointing me in the right direction and no-one gives a shit who told me to talk to some other member of staff.

This doesn't help customers in any way - it does what David Parke says in the article- it enables M&S staff to be evangelists and start conversations with customers about their philosophical beliefs around gender ideology on behalf of M&S.

I don't want to have a political conversation while I'm buying knickers and a loaf of bread, thanks.

@CatherinaJTV

why are you getting all upset about a decision that has been made by employees for employees?

It produces conditions for conflict.

The decision to support pronouns is itself political, and pertains to a hot political topic.

I do not support gender ideology, and do not want to go shopping in an institution where they care so much about this issue to openly support it. And I really do not want a shopping trip for Percy Pigs to become an opportunity to misgender someone and get a police record for a non-hate crime.

In 40+ years of shopping in M&S I cannot remember many occasions where I've had to use a staff member's pronouns. And now suddenly it is an issue for M&S staff?

Just another example of a large corporation pandering to this bizarre agenda

no, the best way to do that would be to squash the patriarchy and its associated assumptions. People would not have preconceptions regarding my abilities or behaviours and I would still be a woman.

Ok
I’m a woman because I’m an adult female.
In what way am I the same as a trans woman?
Obviously, you need to name similarities that don’t “have preconceptions regarding my abilities or behaviours”

On the bright side it encourages me to spend less and spend local which is good for the planet

@AliceThorpe

M&S have no business trying to force our speech.

I will be using the apparent appropriate pronouns for anyone no matter what they claim.

If other people want to sunscribe to an unscientific, child sterilising religion, that is their buisness but they have no right to tell me to use their made up words.

M&S have badly misjudged this.

They, them, their, he, him, his, she, her and hers are not made up words.

As I have said before on MN why do we need to know as just treating everyone as a human being should be sufficient within such a situation. It is irrelevant in the work place and in the majority of places except in sexual attraction iykwim. Common courtesy should cover all every day social interaction and we should be expending our energies on campaigning for those really in need of recognition; the ill, the poor, the abused. How first world a problem is that of trans activists with their hate and vitriol for adult human females. The emperor is naked - get used to it and use your energies to speak for those who really need recognition.

Made up meanings rather than made up words

Is a word "made up " if it's meaning is changed ? Repurposed might be better than made up

Everything All and Posting have said is right on the money.

@Chrysanthemum5

Ah yes *@CatherinaJTV* it does say 'Him' I had misread it.

Yeah but hirry identities are valid.

I don't agree with this at all, I think most of us are in agreement about how pronouns are not the simple "diversity win" that many seem to think they are.

But this attitude of looking for a fight, instantly boycotting anything to do with M&S, gleefully writing angry emails of complaint? This is all behaviour I associate with TRAs, and I'm not going to be part of that.

@Whitefire

What purpose do they serve? I mean on the coal face, when Clara is scanning my shopping why do I need to know that Clara's pronouns are she/her? How is that going to improve customer service or even the perception of it?

If the likes of M&S think that the only way to make people feel safe is to wear a badge with pronouns on then they have major issues that need looking at first.

Clara's colleagues who work with Clara every day but not closely, need to know if Clara prefers for them to use they/them when discussing Clara. In a large store its entirely possible you dont know all your coworkers names let alone their pronouns - and why would you make someone feel uncomfortable when there's no need to by deliberately misgendering them?

I hear this is being introduced in other supermarkets too.

When the fight is brought to you, appeasement isn't a good plan

no, the best way to do that would be to squash the patriarchy and its associated assumptions. People would not have preconceptions regarding my abilities or behaviours and I would still be a woman.

That is exactly what gender critical feminism is, of course.

At the moment you have boys whose parents think if their son likes dresses and dolls he must be a girl, because transgender ideology reinforces gender boxes so stringently.

How about we change perception of women,

How does your head not explode??

@bordermidgebite

When the fight is brought to you, appeasement isn't a good plan

it's a name tag - no one is "bringing the fight to you".

So it's about the staff then and not the customers? And if you can't remember Clara's name, you're sure as heck not going to remember Clara's pronouns.

And a badge is not going to stop deliberate misgendering anyway.

Clara's colleagues who work with Clara every day but not closely, need to know if Clara prefers for them to use they/them when discussing Clara. In a large store its entirely possible you dont know all your coworkers names let alone their pronouns - and why would you make someone feel uncomfortable when there's no need to by deliberately misgendering them?

Indeed! But apparently, this is a call to fight or something.

Nope M&S can fuck off. I’m not going to be to compelled to lie. Beeee kiiiind it’s ooonnlly pronouns don’t be sooooo meeeann, is how we got to the place where academics are hounded out of their jobs for saying that sometimes biological sex is more important than gender identify and rapists in women a prisons

No thank you

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Having the pronouns is optional, according to the article.

It just seems ludicrous considering most people addressing them directly wouldn’t use any pronouns and you’re not there to hear how people speak about you 🤷‍♀️

And I doubt it will have much impact on how they are treated by customers who, for the most part, couldn’t give a flying fig what’s on your label let alone spend time reading it 🙄

Why is it handy to know someone's pronouns?

@Whitefire

So it's about the staff then and not the customers? And if you can't remember Clara's name, you're sure as heck not going to remember Clara's pronouns.

And a badge is not going to stop deliberate misgendering anyway.

If you work in a store with 200 people you aren't going to know everyone especially if they're on a different section or on different shifts. It's not a case of not remembering one person's name.

Let's say Clara comes to help out on your team - you say to someone else that Clara is here for 2 hours to help. If Clara is wearing a pronoun badge with they/them but is a biological female, which pronouns do you use to refer to Clara as?