MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173649/M-S-diversity-managers-staff-pronoun-badges-customers-know-address-them.html

I will be emailing the appropriate departments advising them that gender ideology is still a hot political topic; its decision to allow men to use women's changing rooms made me so uncomfortable that I will not shop for clothes in their stores any more, but its decision to push a political stance with which I fundamentally disagree means I won't be using them at all from now on.

So sad, because I love their trousers and their Christmas party foods.

It is bullying

Cos if you don’t do this as an employee your card will be marked

Forced pronouning

Or bullying

That's not necessarily the case. Imagination doesnt seem to be your strong suit, so I'll spell it out even more. Say you're working together to unpack a trolley of goods onto the shelf. A colleague walks up and asks how you're getting on and how long it's going to take you. You state Clara is here to help and she/they will be there for another 2 hours

Which pronouns do you use for Clara? You aren't talking to Clara but Clara is within earshot

How contrived. In that situation the answer would be

"Clara is helping me- it'll take us another hour or so" or "Clara is helping- we'll need an another hour"

And what if you don’t see claras badge or can’t read it

So usually I am anti anyone being asked to state their pronouns but I was in H&M the other day and a really nice assistant opened a till for us. I, without thinking said to my daughter, "the really nice lady has opened the till for us" and then I looked at them and actually I panicked as I realised I'd made an assumption and I shouldn't.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If women being raped by males or incarcerated with male rapists while they’re in a literally inescapable place is “some bullshit” to you, you have something missing

Quite. Just nasty, while pitching a fit of the vapours over "misgendering".

actually, what is just nasty is that a discussion about pronouns on name badges of supermarket staff invariably ends in discussions about male rapists - most people will actually not associate a "Harry (he/him/his)" badge with rape.

You may have missed it, but the argument that putting pronouns puts (cis) women at risk is quite frequently used here.

At risk of discrimination bin the work place, for having their sex highlighted, usually in male oriented work places.

Anyone can tell men from women in real life. So pronouns.on a badge won't add any information for the vast majority of staff. But it will highlight those who choose to step out from the norm. When done by someone else it's r ferr d to as 'outing' and is recognised as being unwanted. Only with gender ideology does that get reversed.

Why is that? Do you know?

Tying yourself in knots to avoid using someone's preferred pronouns is transphobic.

And I referred to the transwomen in jail as some bullshit because its got absolutely nothing to do with shop workers wearing pronoun badges and I found it distasteful in the extreme that someone would draw that equivalence. But you go off.

It was someone who agrees with you who raised the non sequitur of "transwomen in prison or some bullshit" and handwaved it away, Catherina. Try to keep up.

It does no harm to respect how people uncomfortable with a gender binary, or transitioning, would like to be referred to and yet some people can't even manage that, because transwomen in prison or some bullshit.

Actually Caterina it was someone who supports pronoun badges who brought up the topic of males who identify as women being housed alongside women in female prisons.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It was someone who agrees with you who raised the non sequitur of "transwomen in prison or some bullshit" and handwaved it away, Catherina. Try to keep up.

Yes because someone else brought it up first as though it's a reasonable point to make - which is why I referred to it as some bullshit.

Try reading.

@luckyrabbits

So usually I am anti anyone being asked to state their pronouns but I was in H&M the other day and a really nice assistant opened a till for us. I, without thinking said to my daughter, "the really nice lady has opened the till for us" and then I looked at them and actually I panicked as I realised I'd made an assumption and I shouldn't.

You panicked? That's how fucking invidious this whole bag of white is.

You were shopping, a woman served you and you panicked because you referred to her as female, using the most common form of address for a woman?

Give your head a wobble. Hopefully it will dislodge the ludicrous fears that have crept in

But this attitude of looking for a fight, instantly boycotting anything to do with M&S, gleefully writing angry emails of complaint? This is all behaviour I associate with TRAs, and I'm not going to be part of that.

Any person, female or otherwise, should be free to boycott any brand or company they wish to, for any (or no) reason.

Similarly, anyone should be free to write a letter/email of complaint to any company they wish to.

If you don't agree and you don't want to boycott a company or complain to them, then that's fine.

But shaming other women into staying silent and not grumbling because you don't want to is intolerant and manipulative - it's a common tool of the patriarchy in keeping women down.

You can do what you like, but so can everyone else.

Tying yourself in knots to avoid using someone's preferred pronouns is transphobic.

Too bad, because I won't ever be calling males, "she" and no one can make me. Compelled speech is really not something you should be advocating for. If the pendulum swung back the other way, would you want to be compelled to say things that go against your strongly held beliefs?

Try reading.

You try reading. Or caring about the rights of women and girls. Or having one iota of critical thought.

@FaaarkinEll

Tying yourself in knots to avoid using someone's preferred pronouns is transphobic.

And I referred to the transwomen in jail as some bullshit because its got absolutely nothing to do with shop workers wearing pronoun badges and I found it distasteful in the extreme that someone would draw that equivalence. But you go off.

Wait! Trying not to offend is transphobic?

So... I get it wrong, I am transphobic; I make an effort not to get it wrong, I am transphobic.

That just about sums it up, doesn't it?

I reject the gender binary

I also reject the idea that gender should ever be used , highlighted or assumed because I reject the gender binary

Thus I reject the idea that pronouns signal gender

Because it's not rejecting gender binary , it's playing Into it

It's making gender important when it should be rejected

Samphire , isn't that the definition of witch again ?

we didn't talk about trans women at all, we talked about women putting their pronouns and how others have preconceptions regarding women's compentencies and behaviours. You may have missed it, but the argument that putting pronouns puts (cis) women at risk is quite frequently used here.

Ah, you’ve gone for simple avoidance.
To be fair, it says so much more about your illogical, inconsistent stance than any of your other waffle.

FaaarkinEll

Tying yourself in knots to avoid using someone's preferred pronouns is transphobic

You've been tying yourself in knots to come up with convoluted and imaginary situations where pronouns would be used.

@bordermidgebite

Samphire , isn't that the definition of witch again ?

Yep!

And it's so plainly said you'd think those stating it would hesitate. But no...

Another hard of thinking.

If you deliberately avoid using pronouns because that person prefers pronouns other than the ones you think they should be using then you're transphobic. It's about intent. For example if you think they should use he/him but they prefer they/them and so you avoid using their pronouns at all.

Oh! I see.

Enforced language.

You really don't see it do you?

Burn the witch, indeed!

I don't think there is a clearer illustration of how much this is about power and control.

@bordermidgebite

Let's say that Clara is clearly female but has he/him badge

Clara , a manager , is currently stacking shelves an aisle away from a clearly male colleague

a member of the public comes up , asks a tricky question

You reply
"See that staff assistant over there , he can help you"

Who does the public go to? Why?

Another opportunity for the member of public to misgender the staff member and put themselves at risk of a hate crime, a lecture, or mere social embarrassment.

And decide to go elsewhere in future.