Pronouns

[VelvetChairGirl]

Am I the only one who instantly judges those who state their pronouns as a massive narcissist?

especially if those pronouns are things you would never use when talking to someone, like they/them, who the hell refers to the person they are talking to as they/them, that doesn't work in English you cant use third person pronouns in the first person thats not how the language works.

Its trying to make you second guess everything and tread on eggshells, like a control thing to me, the idea alone that you are going to memorize everyone's individual pronouns for use whenever you see them individually is narcissistic, like you haven't got tonnes of other people you talk to.

Fwiw I (and probably quite a lot of others) think that comment/implication is out of order.

Thanks

I have no respect or sympathy at all fir a parent who "supports" their child in a harmful way.

How am I being harmful? She says she is non binary. She doesn't want to be a boy or take hormones or cut off her breasts.
I'm trying to keep a good relationship with my child who, despite her difficulties, has a lovely group of friends and is happy and content ( something I was worried she might not be when she got her diagnosis)

border your comments are really unnecessary and unpleasant.

@Themilkmanschild

Fwiw I (and probably quite a lot of others) think that comment/implication is out of order.

Thanks

Parenting is so difficult sometimes especially with autism thrown into the mix. Keeping the relationship going is often more important than the rights and wrongs of a situation.

@Themilkmanschild

Coolio. Have you read that link I quoted to you? I have yes. But she already has a diagnosis of autism and she has read about autistic people and gender dysphoria, she is very intelligent. She is also very happy with who she is. Not the distressed person some of you are making out these teens to be.

I don't doubt the current happiness.

But as an autistic woman a few years older, I fear it's a coping mechanism that doesn't work longterm. I would probably have gone for being a they/them or he/him as a teen, had the option been offered.

But people would have continued to treat me as female, and I would have merely othered myself from the writings and feminist analysis of my foremothers which is what has actually enabled me to understand society and what is going on.

Further, identifying as non-binary or the opposite sex seems to lead to joining a social subculture of people who spend their lives trying to control other people's perceptions, in a vain attempt to achieve personal happiness.

It's a terrible route to long term peace. The goal should be to develop a secure sense of self, and to become a person who can cope with the conflicts of daily life. Surrounding oneself with people who normalise feeling distraught over receiving the wrong honorific (e.g. Madam instead of Sir) is worse than counterproductive, it's actively damaging.

Because actually the comment implied that it was my parenting.

I've read it again in case I missed something, and I really don't think it was. It's a searching question and certainly one I would consider in all aspects of my parenting, not just this issue. Uncomfortable questions about difficult situations can, and often do make us feel uncomfortable. Which makes us lash out as a defence mechanism. But the question is certainly worth considering and answering, even if it's only to yourself.

How am I being harmful? She says she is non binary. She doesn't want to be a boy or take hormones or cut off her breasts.

Well that's good to hear anyway. Although being non binary is often seen to be a middle step before people move into a trans identify. It's also a step that people take when moving out of a trans identify. It's worth being aware of that for your child's sake. I wish you both all the best anyway.

Also, simply by itself, without taking wider influences into account, I think concluding that issues are down to oneself being a they/them, rather than that society is a bit shit for women and girls, especially ones on the autism spectrum is...

well, it's as far away from the social model of disability as it's possible to be!

I am a woman, I was a girl, and I never deserved to be othered from my sex. The bandwidth of womanhood should be widened to include me, and society shouldn't be cheerily assigning us as they/them as if it's progressive to do so

Some really excellent posts from Purgatory.

Themilkmanschild, there's absolutely no need to justify yourself or your parenting to any stranger on the internet - you don't owe anyone anything and it's perfectly ok to ignore people if they're being intrusive or rude.

You don't owe anyone an explanation and you sound like a caring and thoughtful parent, IMO.

That's an interesting post PurgatoryOfPotholes. I would agree with that.

Using 'they' is so confusing. I had a handover with a colleague last week and I assumed they were talking about two customers coming to see me not one who can't handle being male or female.

there's absolutely no need to justify yourself or your parenting to any stranger on the internet - you don't owe anyone anything and it's perfectly ok to ignore people if they're being intrusive or rude.

It doesn't mean it's not a useful question to self reflect on. Surely?

Powerful post @PurgatoryOfPotholes and a very good point. How dare people suggest a woman might not be a woman because she's not womaning 'properly'!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Also, simply by itself, without taking wider influences into account, I think concluding that issues are down to oneself being a they/them, rather than that society is a bit shit for women and girls, especially ones on the autism spectrum is...

well, it's as far away from the social model of disability as it's possible to be!

I am a woman, I was a girl, and I never deserved to be othered from my sex. The bandwidth of womanhood should be widened to include me, and society shouldn't be cheerily assigning us as they/them as if it's progressive to do so

Yes. Quite.

It doesn't mean it's not a useful question to self reflect on. Surely?

Self-reflection is one thing (and it sounds like the poster in question has already done plenty of that), but that's not what's going on when another poster says "have you considered how you might have contributed?" and then brings up examples of moments from their own childhood to illustrate that "parents do those kinds of things".

Girls not wanting to be seen as girls is a complex societal issue, moreso when autism is a factor, so I think it was an unfairly personal and accusatory comment that other poster made based on their inability to "self-reflect" on their own biases from their own childhood issues.

Lots of parents have children who identify as trans or non-binary now, as gender identity is taught as fact in most schools. And in hospitals, banks, council offices, etc. So I think it's really unfair to hold parents of trans-identifying children responsible when there are clearly many other direct influences on children's mindsets and belief systems.

So I think it's really unfair to hold parents of trans-identifying children responsible when there are clearly many other direct influences on children's mindsets and belief systems.

Asking someone to consider where they might have contributed isn't holding them responsible. It is just that. Asking them if they think they contributed. In turn, what they might have done differently if time could be turned back. It's not a reflection on anyone. But it may provide valuable insight to other parents as to what they could do differently (if anything).

The poster, who is also autistic, kindly shared her valuable insight here from her perspective. Dont you think her lived experience is useful in guiding others? Because I do.

The poster, who is also autistic, kindly shared her valuable insight here from her perspective. Dont you think her lived experience is useful in guiding others? Because I do.

Well, my impression was that she shared her experience under duress because she likely felt attacked (I know I would have done if I'd just asked an innocent question and received that kind of response).

So while it might be useful to others to hear about her circumstances, it made me feel quite uncomfortable watching a woman who is clearly dealing with a lot being interrogated about her parenting like that, when she was clearly becoming upset with the direction the conversation was taking.

I might be completely off-base and she might have been having a great time, though. In which case, just ignore me.

I don't think we're talking about the same poster here. I was talking about PurgatoryOfPotholes kindly sharing her experiences.

Oh no - I was talking to/about Themilkmanschild.

Ah, the poster who accused others of being hateful and to fuck off. Ok.

I would judge a person who stated their pronouns. I would think that they were hard work and/or not able to think things through properly. I would try to avoid them as far as I could in order not to be dragged into any drama.

But that person would never know. I would be friendly and use their pronouns.

This has all got a bit confusing while I was watching Doctor Who.

Still, on the bright side, not as confusing as this thread went. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4204312-I-had-the-most-awful-row-with-my-teenagers-yesterday?msgid=106125632#106125632

Has anyone said that they would be happy to alternate using she/her and they/them when writing about the same person?

"You literally used “them” to describe a singular person in your post.

I learn people’s names. Some people have foreign names I’m not quite familiar with. I do this because it’s basic human decency to do so.

Something you’re clearly unwilling to do. Shame on you"

Actually Conniethesensible its basic human decency not to force your beliefs on others, so shame on you.

@Themilkmanschild

If your child is expressing a trans identity, have you really considered how you might have contributed ?

Wow and you wonder why people think you're all hateful?

It's not my fault, I'm probably as gender non conforming as she is actually, I work in IT and I don't wear make up. They've always had all the different toys and I've encouraged their interests in whatever those might be. I would suggest perhaps it's more to do with her autism than me being a shit parent.
You lot really can fuck off

Could you perhaps not call us all hateful ("you're all hateful")and tell us all to fuck off ("you lot really can fuck off") on the basis of one poster who has been pulled up by more than one person?